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Questionerthank you very much for making time I'll do this the mint Equity Master podcast with us we're super delighted to have you on the show
Otheruh well Raul pleasure is all mine
Questionerwonderful thank you uh you know uh a podcast is more about the individual and the way they've approached situations in life and from there we draw the lessons so we'll do the same thing today if you know if you'll indulge me so I want to kick it off by starting right from the beginning if you could spend a few minutes talking about where you grew up uh a little bit about your parents what were your parents you know professionally business-wise and also uh whether at that point in time whether there was any Investments discussions IPO papers or something doing the rounds in the house if you can give us a little bit of a background on
Questionergive us a little bit of a background on that
OtherI was born in bandra in Mumbai Mumbai right now on uh linking Road oh wow just here yeah so first 18 years of my life was 10 years in Mumbai six years in Delhi and two years in Dubai though it was not in uh contiguous streams I had two three-year periods in Delhi in the middle but Mumbai was uh the biggest one out of the three but uh these other the other places also interesting my my father was a you might call him a quintessential entrepreneur he was extremely good at identifying what I would call offering gaps so he was really good at kind of scanning the radar and saying oh this is a product or service that does not exist and I think there'll be you know a good demand for it he was also extremely good at starting businesses with zero money so basically uh and in fact that's a skill I picked up from him he used to he
Otherskill I picked up from him he used to he used to say you could you could put me naked on a rock in the middle of nowhere and I will start a business and so so he had a he had a great ability to identify opportunities and he had a great ability to basically create something from scratch which didn't exist and his uh his downfall was that he was a eternal optimist and he was very aggressive so when he identified an opportunity and uh uh the business would invariably take off he would step on the gas with everything he had and so the common trait in all his businesses was that they were very highly levered and like you know whatever the banks would give him to the max whatever he'd take all that and they had no real staying power when the first headwinds came in my childhood basically every three or four years my father would go bankrupt
Otheryears my father would go bankrupt so there would be a great business whichso there would be a great business whichso there would be a great business which would have a very rapid growth and thenwould have a very rapid growth and thenwould have a very rapid growth and then it would blow up and some of theseit would blow up and some of theseit would blow up and some of these things got pretty large they got up tothings got pretty large they got up tothings got pretty large they got up to like three or four hundred people andlike three or four hundred people andlike three or four hundred people and and then then blew up so my my parentsand then then blew up so my my parentsand then then blew up so my my parents basically were very poor financialbasically were very poor financialbasically were very poor financial planners so basically when times wereplanners so basically when times wereplanners so basically when times were goodgoodgood they lived like kingsthey lived like kingsthey lived like kings and when when the business went bankruptand when when the business went bankruptand when when the business went bankrupt we did not have money for rent we didn'twe did not have money for rent we didn'twe did not have money for rent we didn't have money for groceries you knowhave money for groceries you knowhave money for groceries you know absolutely we would hit bottom soabsolutely we would hit bottom soabsolutely we would hit bottom so basically when the business was havingbasically when the business was havingbasically when the business was having difficultydifficultydifficulty we were personally having difficultieswe were personally having difficultieswe were personally having difficulties so you know borrowing from friends andso you know borrowing from friends andso you know borrowing from friends and relatives and so on so there was thisrelatives and so on so there was thisrelatives and so on so there was this kind of constant boom and bust but mykind of constant boom and bust but mykind of constant boom and bust but my dad would go through the bankruptcy havedad would go through the bankruptcy havedad would go through the bankruptcy have nothing leftnothing leftnothing left and then he would find anotherand then he would find anotherand then he would find another opportunity so he started businesses inopportunity so he started businesses inopportunity so he started businesses in maybe
Othermaybe 10 different Industries 10 different Industries 10 different Industries in many cases he started businesses in many cases he started businesses in many cases he started businesses with no prior experience in those with no prior experience in those with no prior experience in those Industries Industries Industries for example one time he was so the last bankruptcy he had in India the last bankruptcy he had in India the last bankruptcy he had in India was when I was 13 years old was when I was 13 years old was when I was 13 years old and so just to just to go back a little and so just to just to go back a little and so just to just to go back a little bit so bit so bit so I think I think after I was after I was I think I think after I was after I was I think I think after I was after I was about 10 years old my brother was 11 about 10 years old my brother was 11 about 10 years old my brother was 11 years old years old years old we were like the board of directors for we were like the board of directors for we were like the board of directors for my dad my dad my dad so I remember that we would sit down at so I remember that we would sit down at so I remember that we would sit down at night maybe when I was like 12 years old night maybe when I was like 12 years old night maybe when I was like 12 years old or something or something or something and the business was in very serious and the business was in very serious and the business was in very serious trouble trouble trouble and we were just trying to figure out and we were just trying to figure out and we were just trying to figure out how to make it run for one more day how to make it run for one more day how to make it run for one more day and we would you know all the caves are and we would you know all the caves are and we would you know all the caves are you know all the walls are caving in all you know all the walls are caving in all you know all the walls are caving in all the creditors have their Knives Out you the creditors have their Knives Out you the creditors have their Knives Out you know everything is collapsing right and know everything is collapsing right and know everything is collapsing right and in the middle middle of all that in the middle middle of all that in the middle middle of all that all we are trying to do is keep it alive all we are trying to do is keep it alive
Otherall we are trying to do is keep it alive for one more day and then we would meet for one more day and then we would meet the next day next day at night and we'd try to figure out how to keep her alive for one more day
Otherand when I was about 16 or so I used to go on sales calls with my dad and basically by the time I was 18. I had finished many many mbos I had finished degrees in business that are not taught in any business school and in fact it was a very accidental experience because the human brain so one of the quirky things about humans the brain is the most underdeveloped organ when we are born the birth canal is too narrow and so basically the brain that comes out is almost like premature you can say and it's the fastest going growing organ in the first five years of life so the neuron connections are going like crazy and you can see an infant you know one one month old is is utterly you
Otherknow one one month old is is utterly you know dependent with almost no abilitiesknow dependent with almost no abilitiesknow dependent with almost no abilities and then that that changes very rapidlyand then that that changes very rapidlyand then that that changes very rapidly so the brain goes through a very rapidso the brain goes through a very rapidso the brain goes through a very rapid growth in the first five years of lifegrowth in the first five years of lifegrowth in the first five years of life after about the age of 10 or 11 it isafter about the age of 10 or 11 it isafter about the age of 10 or 11 it is optimally set up to specializeoptimally set up to specializeoptimally set up to specialize so from the age of 11 to about 20 theso from the age of 11 to about 20 theso from the age of 11 to about 20 the neuron connections actually get cut theyneuron connections actually get cut theyneuron connections actually get cut they are reduced and their sections of theare reduced and their sections of theare reduced and their sections of the brain that are optimally set up tobrain that are optimally set up tobrain that are optimally set up to specializespecializespecialize so that is the only window of time inso that is the only window of time inso that is the only window of time in our entire lifetime from 11 to 20. whenour entire lifetime from 11 to 20. whenour entire lifetime from 11 to 20. when it is the biggest bang for the buck toit is the biggest bang for the buck toit is the biggest bang for the buck to specialize now in our education systemsspecialize now in our education systemsspecialize now in our education systems what happenedwhat happenedwhat happened is we are forced to be jack of allis we are forced to be jack of allis we are forced to be jack of all trades form 11 to 20. or at least 11 totrades form 11 to 20. or at least 11 totrades form 11 to 20. or at least 11 to 18 or maybe in India 11 to 16. so that18 or maybe in India 11 to 16. so that18 or maybe in India 11 to 16. so that window basically closes for most humanswindow basically closes for most humanswindow basically closes for most humans without really now there are some humanswithout really now there are some humanswithout really now there are some humans what happens like Bill Gateswhat happens like Bill Gateswhat happens like Bill Gates he starts programming at 11. okay Warrenhe starts programming at 11. okay Warren
Questionerhe starts programming at 11. okay Warren Buffett he bought his first talk at 11.
WarrenBuffett he bought his first talk at 11.Buffett he bought his first talk at 11. and in my case for and you know if youand in my case for and you know if youand in my case for and you know if you look at Michelangelo you look at you'relook at Michelangelo you look at you'relook at Michelangelo you look at you're not a da Vinci you go back into theirnot a da Vinci you go back into theirnot a da Vinci you go back into their lives and you will see there's a lot oflives and you will see there's a lot oflives and you will see there's a lot of activity taking place from 11 to 15.activity taking place from 11 to 15.activity taking place from 11 to 15. which is helping them specializewhich is helping them specializewhich is helping them specialize andandand someone like Bill Gates had probablysomeone like Bill Gates had probablysomeone like Bill Gates had probably done more than 10 or 15 000 hours ofdone more than 10 or 15 000 hours ofdone more than 10 or 15 000 hours of programmingprogrammingprogramming before he was 20. so someone in theirbefore he was 20. so someone in theirbefore he was 20. so someone in their 40s40s40s who's done the similar amount of workwho's done the similar amount of workwho's done the similar amount of work from 20 to 40. cannot match Bill Gatesfrom 20 to 40. cannot match Bill Gatesfrom 20 to 40. cannot match Bill Gates because he did it in a window over herebecause he did it in a window over herebecause he did it in a window over here things were just optimized so in my casethings were just optimized so in my casethings were just optimized so in my case it was accidental where my parentsit was accidental where my parentsit was accidental where my parents obviously had no clue about all thisobviously had no clue about all thisobviously had no clue about all this that I got a huge education in businessthat I got a huge education in businessthat I got a huge education in business while going through this you know jackwhile going through this you know jackwhile going through this you know jack of all trades stupid education systemof all trades stupid education systemof all trades stupid education system but I was learning business on the sidebut I was learning business on the sidebut I was learning business on the side because of and it weighed on our mindsbecause of and it weighed on our minds
Questionerbecause of and it weighed on our minds because these things were going underbecause these things were going underbecause these things were going under you know so you have to figure out a lotyou know so you have to figure out a lotyou know so you have to figure out a lot of things and you really get really goodof things and you really get really goodof things and you really get really good at business when it's facing adversity Iat business when it's facing adversity Iat business when it's facing adversity I mean that's when you're like you knowmean that's when you're like you knowmean that's when you're like you know trying to turn over every Rock andtrying to turn over every Rock andtrying to turn over every Rock and whatever so my mywhatever so my mywhatever so my my sorry go ahead I think necessity is thesorry go ahead I think necessity is thesorry go ahead I think necessity is the mother of all invention yeah so my my mymother of all invention yeah so my my mymother of all invention yeah so my my my dad basically was I'll give you andad basically was I'll give you andad basically was I'll give you an example for example at 13 when he wentexample for example at 13 when he wentexample for example at 13 when he went bankrupt at that time actually for thebankrupt at that time actually for thebankrupt at that time actually for the first time he took a job and he took afirst time he took a job and he took afirst time he took a job and he took a job in Dubai so we he moved to Dubaijob in Dubai so we he moved to Dubaijob in Dubai so we he moved to Dubai basically get some stability for thebasically get some stability for thebasically get some stability for the family one time he was taking a flightfamily one time he was taking a flightfamily one time he was taking a flight to Dubai from Mumbaito Dubai from Mumbaito Dubai from Mumbai and there was a jeweler sitting next toand there was a jeweler sitting next toand there was a jeweler sitting next to him on the flight they didn't know eachhim on the flight they didn't know eachhim on the flight they didn't know each other just randomly sitting next to eachother just randomly sitting next to eachother just randomly sitting next to each other and the jeweler was explaining toother and the jeweler was explaining toother and the jeweler was explaining to my dad how the UAE had these laws wheremy dad how the UAE had these laws where
Othermy dad how the UAE had these laws where raw gold coming into the country had noraw gold coming into the country had noraw gold coming into the country had no duties or tariffs but finished gold hadduties or tariffs but finished gold hadduties or tariffs but finished gold had a two percent Dutya two percent Dutya two percent Duty and he said that when the two percentand he said that when the two percentand he said that when the two percent duties is assessed on the entire goldduties is assessed on the entire goldduties is assessed on the entire gold finishedfinishedfinished the duty on actually the labor contentthe duty on actually the labor contentthe duty on actually the labor content was very highwas very highwas very high because if you just look at it so so hebecause if you just look at it so so hebecause if you just look at it so so he was explaining how if you if thewas explaining how if you if thewas explaining how if you if the manufacturing that's done in India ofmanufacturing that's done in India ofmanufacturing that's done in India of this handcrafted Indian jewelry was donethis handcrafted Indian jewelry was donethis handcrafted Indian jewelry was done in Dubai even with elevated labor costsin Dubai even with elevated labor costsin Dubai even with elevated labor costs because of this this Nuance there was abecause of this this Nuance there was abecause of this this Nuance there was a widespread and that there was nobody inwidespread and that there was nobody inwidespread and that there was nobody in the UAE who was Manufacturing jewelry inthe UAE who was Manufacturing jewelry inthe UAE who was Manufacturing jewelry in country at that time so by the time thecountry at that time so by the time thecountry at that time so by the time the flight finished my dad had decided to goflight finished my dad had decided to goflight finished my dad had decided to go into the jewelry business he had nointo the jewelry business he had nointo the jewelry business he had no prior experience as a jewelry businessprior experience as a jewelry businessprior experience as a jewelry business and to leverage this particularand to leverage this particularand to leverage this particular Arbitrage the guy he was with you knowArbitrage the guy he was with you knowArbitrage the guy he was with you know eventually turned out to be a crook buteventually turned out to be a crook but
Othereventually turned out to be a crook but he taught my dad the jewelry business myhe taught my dad the jewelry business myhe taught my dad the jewelry business my dad was very smart he could pick updad was very smart he could pick updad was very smart he could pick up stuff so by the time a year or 18 monthsstuff so by the time a year or 18 monthsstuff so by the time a year or 18 months later that guy had left with a bunch oflater that guy had left with a bunch oflater that guy had left with a bunch of gold or whatever my dad at leastgold or whatever my dad at leastgold or whatever my dad at least understood the business and thatunderstood the business and thatunderstood the business and that business paid for my college educationbusiness paid for my college educationbusiness paid for my college education in the U.Sin the U.Sin the U.S so just to give you an example of kindso just to give you an example of kindso just to give you an example of kind of how he moved and again that businessof how he moved and again that businessof how he moved and again that business went bankrupt when I had about a yearwent bankrupt when I had about a yearwent bankrupt when I had about a year and a half left to finish collegeand a half left to finish collegeand a half left to finish college because again it was pumping on allbecause again it was pumping on allbecause again it was pumping on all cylinders it was jamming as aggressivelycylinders it was jamming as aggressivelycylinders it was jamming as aggressively as he could and there was a downturn itas he could and there was a downturn itas he could and there was a downturn it blew up and so on so basically that wasblew up and so on so basically that wasblew up and so on so basically that was a kind of the formative experience ina kind of the formative experience ina kind of the formative experience in the early years and I would not trade mythe early years and I would not trade mythe early years and I would not trade my parents for any other parents they wereparents for any other parents they wereparents for any other parents they were amazing individuals and taught meamazing individuals and taught meamazing individuals and taught me wonderful things raised us all very wellwonderful things raised us all very wellwonderful things raised us all very well so overall I would not change anythingso overall I would not change anything
Questionerso overall I would not change anything about the whole experience
OtherI'm sorry your audio I can't I couldn't
QuestionerI'm sorry your audio I can't I couldn't
OtherI'm sorry your audio I can't I couldn't hear just can you repeat
Questionerhear just can you repeat
Otherwas your mother working or was she at home
Questionerwas your mother working or was she at home
Otherno she was at home she was at home yeah
Questionerno she was at home she was at home yeah
Otherand the other question I had related to this is about Investments were you all making any Investments at all I know you mentioned that when the times are good you're not really investing much
Questionerand the other question I had related to this is about Investments were you all making any Investments at all I know you mentioned that when the times are good you're not really investing much
Othermy parents in fact one of my one of my deep regrets is that I think that by the time I learned about Buffett and Munger and was kind of coming up to speed and all of that my dad passed away about two years after that so I actually never had a chance to really discuss Capital allocation and the Buffett Monger Frameworks and I think he would have he would have absorbed that pretty quickly and I think it would have changed his trajectory quite a bit so basically no I I think what was
Questionerbasically no I I think what was happening is that when times were good we were living well but everything was going back into the business okay you know so it was basically all eggs in one basket so you were studying in the U.S you did your graduation Etc where did you go next what did you do next and and where did this whole idea come about was an accident AlI'm going to be really good at picking stocks or making Investments
QuestionerYeah so basically I my degree is in computer engineering perfect sense and actually I had no idea you know people just said computer a heart and I started in computer science and there was more math in engineering so I switched to engineering and I I was on a student visa at the time and so my first priority was to get a green card so and my my parents actually were in a very bad financial shape at that time and so the the immediate necessity was to get a
Questionerthe the immediate necessity was to get a job support them and so on so I startedjob support them and so on so I startedjob support them and so on so I started working in the tech industryworking in the tech industryworking in the tech industry and and then you know I had I had madeand and then you know I had I had madeand and then you know I had I had made made up my mindmade up my mindmade up my mind that I had a good degree I had a goodthat I had a good degree I had a goodthat I had a good degree I had a good jobjobjob and I was going to kind of rise in theand I was going to kind of rise in theand I was going to kind of rise in the corporate worldcorporate worldcorporate world and I had very specifically decidedand I had very specifically decidedand I had very specifically decided that I'm never going to be anthat I'm never going to be anthat I'm never going to be an entrepreneurentrepreneurentrepreneur mainly because I had seen a lot ofmainly because I had seen a lot ofmainly because I had seen a lot of trauma in childhoodtrauma in childhoodtrauma in childhood and I I remember my my dad was visitingand I I remember my my dad was visitingand I I remember my my dad was visiting me one time I had beenme one time I had beenme one time I had been working in engineering for a couple ofworking in engineering for a couple ofworking in engineering for a couple of years and you know I used to be dressedyears and you know I used to be dressedyears and you know I used to be dressed pretty shabbily you work in the labpretty shabbily you work in the labpretty shabbily you work in the lab nobody cares how you dress whatevernobody cares how you dress whatevernobody cares how you dress whatever and he sat me down and he saidand he sat me down and he saidand he sat me down and he said I have failedI have failedI have failed I have failed as a father he said youI have failed as a father he said youI have failed as a father he said you wake up at like 9 00 amwake up at like 9 00 amwake up at like 9 00 am then you roll into work at 10 or 11 A.Mthen you roll into work at 10 or 11 A.Mthen you roll into work at 10 or 11 A.M and you dress you know with all theseand you dress you know with all theseand you dress you know with all these torn jeans and whatever and my dad wastorn jeans and whatever and my dad wastorn jeans and whatever and my dad was always a you know perfect dresser bow
Questioneralways a you know perfect dresser bow tie suits he was just Immaculate you know throughout so he was one time reading the company newsletter that came home you know the company I was working with and he saw in the newsletter that they were opening an international division company was doing about 200 million in sales they wanted International to bring in 200 million in about five or seven years so they were going to invest a lot of money growing their product and customer base outside the U.S so they just set up an International Group they were just talking about that in the newsletter my dad said this guy Peter Foose in this newsletter I want you to go I want you to call Peter and I want you to go meet him and I want you to tell Peter that you want to go work for it so I told my dad listen you know nothing head or tail about what I do nothing had
Otherhead or tail about what I do nothing had to tell about this company nothing head or tail about Peter or tail about Peter he said I said Peter's not interested in me I said Peter's not interested in me so my dad said that's okay I just want you to call Peter so every day when I'd come home he would tell me he would ask me so did you call Peter okay and I'd say no so I said okay let me get the old man off my back I'll call Peter Peter will tell me to like go fly a kite and that'll be the end of that so I called Peter and Peter's really interested to meet me okay so I tell my dad he again asked me I said yeah I call Peter he actually wants to meet he said great let's go shopping okay so he said you can't go meet him the way you dress every day you're gonna I said I can't show up to work in a suit and all that whatever he said no one day when you go beat Peter you're gonna so he was really
Otherbeat Peter you're gonna so he was really excited we went shopping he reset myexcited we went shopping he reset myexcited we went shopping he reset my wardrobe and I went to meet Peter andwardrobe and I went to meet Peter andwardrobe and I went to meet Peter and Peter gave me a job and at that time thePeter gave me a job and at that time thePeter gave me a job and at that time the engineering stuff was kind of getting aengineering stuff was kind of getting aengineering stuff was kind of getting a little boring because we shipped thelittle boring because we shipped thelittle boring because we shipped the product there was no work so I'm I madeproduct there was no work so I'm I madeproduct there was no work so I'm I made the switch from engineering tothe switch from engineering tothe switch from engineering to International marketing that was a veryInternational marketing that was a veryInternational marketing that was a very exhilarating three years because theexhilarating three years because theexhilarating three years because the group I joined which was like maybe sixgroup I joined which was like maybe sixgroup I joined which was like maybe six peoplepeoplepeople about three years later had 800 peopleabout three years later had 800 peopleabout three years later had 800 people and we had it made a couple Acquisitionsand we had it made a couple Acquisitionsand we had it made a couple Acquisitions overseas and I was probably 80 of myoverseas and I was probably 80 of myoverseas and I was probably 80 of my time traveling all over the world andtime traveling all over the world andtime traveling all over the world and you know doing a mix ofyou know doing a mix ofyou know doing a mix of engineering and sales and marketing itengineering and sales and marketing itengineering and sales and marketing it was a really exciting time and I waswas a really exciting time and I waswas a really exciting time and I was single and you knowsingle and you knowsingle and you know like I would be on a business trip tolike I would be on a business trip tolike I would be on a business trip to Bangkok and then I'd spend the weekendBangkok and then I'd spend the weekendBangkok and then I'd spend the weekend there you know all company paidthere you know all company paidthere you know all company paid everything paid so after a couple ofeverything paid so after a couple ofeverything paid so after a couple of years my dad is visiting me again
Otheryears my dad is visiting me again I'm dressed every day in a suit you know blah blah so he sits me down and says it's time to quit I said you're the guy who told me to take this job I took this job I love this job it's awesome and this is just great everything is great about it he said look all you're doing is making somebody else rich you don't see any of the rewards of what you're doing so I said have you forgotten my childhood I don't want the roller coaster ride so he said the roller coaster ride is what makes it exciting and so he was able to convince me to start my first business and I actually knew how to do that because of all the all the you know time and childhood and so on so I started the I.T services company and I kept my job and the startup till it had enough cash flow where I could quit my job and I would be making more than what they were paying
Questionermaking more than what they were paying me and that business did really well it was growing really fast it was the early 90s and accidentally I think in 94 my wife and I were vacationing in London in 94 and I was looking for something to read on the flight back and I picked up one of Peter Lynch's books one up on Wall Street and I had never bought a stock before I'd never made any investments before I really didn't know how to tell about any of this stuff but I really enjoyed Lynch's book so then I looked up and found here's another book so I read that and then I was out of Peter Lynch books there were only two books and I wanted to keep going in this area but he was talking in the second book about a guy named Warren Buffett I read one up on Wall Street first and then beating the street for the second one and he was talking about Buffett I'd never heard about Buffett and so I
Questionernever heard about Buffett and so I never heard about Buffett and so I started to research Buffett and I was started to research Buffett and I was started to research Buffett and I was very lucky the first couple of very lucky the first couple of very lucky the first couple of biographies on Warren Buffett had just biographies on Warren Buffett had just biographies on Warren Buffett had just come out and then that led me to The come out and then that led me to The come out and then that led me to The Berkshire shareholder letters and that Berkshire shareholder letters and that Berkshire shareholder letters and that opened up a huge work opened up a huge work opened up a huge work and I had a I had a aha moment in 94 and I had a I had a aha moment in 94 and I had a I had a aha moment in 94 when I studied Buffett and the way he when I studied Buffett and the way he when I studied Buffett and the way he invested invested invested and the only kind of professional and the only kind of professional and the only kind of professional managers that I knew about was the managers that I knew about was the managers that I knew about was the mutual fund industry mutual fund industry mutual fund industry so when I looked at the what Buffett was so when I looked at the what Buffett was so when I looked at the what Buffett was saying about how to invest and I looked saying about how to invest and I looked saying about how to invest and I looked at the way the mutual fund industry at the way the mutual fund industry at the way the mutual fund industry functioned functioned functioned the two were night and day you know the two were night and day you know the two were night and day you know Buffett says you know you have this 20 Buffett says you know you have this 20 Buffett says you know you have this 20 20 punch card in a lifetime you buy like 20 punch card in a lifetime you buy like 20 punch card in a lifetime you buy like 20 stocks you know each one is a big 20 stocks you know each one is a big 20 stocks you know each one is a big decision decision decision and the typical mutual fund has 100 and the typical mutual fund has 100 and the typical mutual fund has 100 stocks and 80 annual turnover they're stocks and 80 annual turnover they're stocks and 80 annual turnover they're like dancing in out of stocks all the like dancing in out of stocks all the like dancing in out of stocks all the time time time and their results reflected that dancing
Questionerand their results reflected that dancing so when I looked at all the mutual funds I would find like 80 90 of them did worse than the index and so I had a notion I said if somebody just follows Buffett's approach to investing of just being understanding the business making a decent bet sticking to it understanding intrinsic value circle of competence and so on one should be able to do better than the professionals so that theory really has no merit till there's some proof or execution behind it and in 94 I had sold a portion of small portion of my company after taxes I had one million dollars and I really didn't need the money the company was doing well and it was an extra one million first time I had money in the bank and so I said okay I'll take this million I'll start investing it using Buffett's Frameworks I was going to buy like 10
QuestionerFrameworks I was going to buy like 10 stocks you know 10 bets and I want to see what happens you know and as my day job I'm still running my I.T company and in about five years that million has turned into 13 million and basically the uh it was like a you know 70 analyze rate of return did exceptionally well so I said well done monish we knew you could do this and I I was probably spending like maybe 15 20 hours a week on investment research and Analysis and I was spending probably 40 hours 50 hours a week on my business and I was getting less and less interested because my what has happened with the I.T company was it was up to about 150 170 people my job had turned into human resource management I was basically just managing bunch of political games played by a bunch of vice presidents and I had no interest in that so it got to the point where I basically
Questionerso it got to the point where I basically didn't even feel like going to work and so what I did in 99 is I started a search for a CEO for the company so I could leave the company because I really didn't have any interest in being there and I decided I'm going to my first plan was to go work for Warren Buffett so I wrote him a letter offering my services for free he wrote back saying thanks but no thanks and then my friends basically I used to give them stock tips you know after I'd bought something and they had done really well so they came to me and said listen we want you to manage money for us and you you tell us to buy something we buy something and it doubles we sell it and then we don't see you and it's already random so they wanted to give me money and they said you manage it so I set up a bright funds in 99 really as a hobby
Questionerhobbyhobby for me to invest into a total of afor me to invest into a total of afor me to invest into a total of a million dollars would be me and eightmillion dollars would be me and eightmillion dollars would be me and eight friendsfriendsfriends and about a year and a half later youand about a year and a half later youand about a year and a half later you know we had a 70 year the first yearknow we had a 70 year the first yearknow we had a 70 year the first year I had brought in a CEO who had takenI had brought in a CEO who had takenI had brought in a CEO who had taken over my businessover my businessover my business about a couple of months after heabout a couple of months after heabout a couple of months after he started he said someone wanted to buy itstarted he said someone wanted to buy itstarted he said someone wanted to buy it so we sold the business because he wasso we sold the business because he wasso we sold the business because he was going to get a new deal and againgoing to get a new deal and againgoing to get a new deal and again another bite of the apple and so in 2000another bite of the apple and so in 2000another bite of the apple and so in 2000 I decided let me not treat the fund as aI decided let me not treat the fund as aI decided let me not treat the fund as a stepchild let's treat it as a realstepchild let's treat it as a realstepchild let's treat it as a real business and try to grow and scale it sobusiness and try to grow and scale it sobusiness and try to grow and scale it so over iPhones then I started toover iPhones then I started toover iPhones then I started to uh you know pay more attention to it inuh you know pay more attention to it inuh you know pay more attention to it in terms of you know adding more moreterms of you know adding more moreterms of you know adding more more investors and assets and so oninvestors and assets and so oninvestors and assets and so on and it grew and did really well soand it grew and did really well soand it grew and did really well so that's kind of how the journey got goingquestions relatedquestions relatedquestions related what is the 99 is a pretty peculiar youwhat is the 99 is a pretty peculiar youwhat is the 99 is a pretty peculiar you have to launch a fund because it's onhave to launch a fund because it's onhave to launch a fund because it's on the eve of what would turn out to be onethe eve of what would turn out to be one
Questionerthe eve of what would turn out to be one of the biggest crashes we've seen in aof the biggest crashes we've seen in aof the biggest crashes we've seen in a long time the TMT bubble burst in thelong time the TMT bubble burst in thelong time the TMT bubble burst in the first quarter of March April of 2020.first quarter of March April of 2020.first quarter of March April of 2020. and you still had a very good yearand you still had a very good yearand you still had a very good year so basically the the NASDAQ peaked onso basically the the NASDAQ peaked onso basically the the NASDAQ peaked on March 9th 2020.March 9th 2020.March 9th 2020. and when I started investing almost alland when I started investing almost alland when I started investing almost all my investments were Tech Investmentsmy investments were Tech Investmentsmy investments were Tech Investments because that's what I knew well okay andbecause that's what I knew well okay andbecause that's what I knew well okay and I could probably see the bubble not veryI could probably see the bubble not veryI could probably see the bubble not very much in advance of the othersmuch in advance of the othersmuch in advance of the others maybe three to six months ahead of themaybe three to six months ahead of themaybe three to six months ahead of the others but by by the middle of 99others but by by the middle of 99others but by by the middle of 99 I was very convinced that this thing wasI was very convinced that this thing wasI was very convinced that this thing was going to end badly I I didn't know whengoing to end badly I I didn't know whengoing to end badly I I didn't know when it would end and how it would end soit would end and how it would end soit would end and how it would end so what I did is I did a complete 180 sowhat I did is I did a complete 180 sowhat I did is I did a complete 180 so rifens launched on July 1st 99. and whatrifens launched on July 1st 99. and whatrifens launched on July 1st 99. and what was happening is that they the NASDAQwas happening is that they the NASDAQwas happening is that they the NASDAQ peaked on March March 9th 2000 was thepeaked on March March 9th 2000 was thepeaked on March March 9th 2000 was the same day that Berkshire Hathaway hit asame day that Berkshire Hathaway hit asame day that Berkshire Hathaway hit a multi-year lowmulti-year lowmulti-year low so while one portion of the market was
Questionerso while one portion of the market was very frenzied and going crazy pets.com and everything else basic brick and mortar businesses got very cheap you know funeral homes steel mills Berkshire Hathaway and they got like single digit multiples you know I remember I remember I bought a funeral home for two times earnings and so people were literally selling basic companies and dumping everything into pets.com right so in 99 when the fund started I completely switched to Classic Ben Graham a deep value which actually I'd never done before then and first year we were up 70 and the NASDAQ started to crash so from July 1999 to June 30th 2000 I was up and already in the first the last three months NASDAQ was cratering the NASDAQ took uh it was a crash in slow motion it took about two years when it went from 5000 to 1200 so it gradually went down but
Ted Weschlerto 1200 so it gradually went down but basically from 99 to 2007 well Brian funds did 37 a year before fees no down years and basically the disparity between us and the indices was massive and I wasn't doing anything special all I was doing is just be I was I was looking for companies which had very stable cash flows and operations extremely boring and no one's interested so I'll give you an example like in I think in 2004 I ran into the steel company called ipsco and ipsco was trading at about 45 dollars a share they had 15 share in cash they had no debt and these guys were building the kind of Steel they built was tubular steel kind of like what goes into pipelines so they had an order book that went out several years and they had very visible cash flows they had publicly stated that the next two years cash flows were 15 a share each
Questionershare each and so the stock is at 45 there's 15 of and so the stock is at 45 there's 15 of and so the stock is at 45 there's 15 of cash if you take the next two years cash cash if you take the next two years cash cash if you take the next two years cash flow flow flow you're gonna have 45 of cash you're gonna have 45 of cash you're gonna have 45 of cash and the plant and equipment and and the plant and equipment and and the plant and equipment and everything else is free everything else is free everything else is free so it's a very cyclical business we so it's a very cyclical business we so it's a very cyclical business we don't know what the cash flows are after don't know what the cash flows are after don't know what the cash flows are after two years but I said I just want to buy two years but I said I just want to buy two years but I said I just want to buy the stock the stock the stock and let's see what happens after two and let's see what happens after two and let's see what happens after two years years years so a year later they announced okay one so a year later they announced okay one so a year later they announced okay one more year we will have fifteen dollars a more year we will have fifteen dollars a more year we will have fifteen dollars a share in cash flow share in cash flow share in cash flow and by now the stock is at like 70. and by now the stock is at like 70. and by now the stock is at like 70. and then I was thinking okay you know and then I was thinking okay you know and then I was thinking okay you know this is cyclical maybe we should you this is cyclical maybe we should you this is cyclical maybe we should you know know know let it go we made our money and all that let it go we made our money and all that let it go we made our money and all that and then it gradually drifted up to and then it gradually drifted up to and then it gradually drifted up to about 90 and I was getting ready to sell about 90 and I was getting ready to sell about 90 and I was getting ready to sell it it was a double in less than two it it was a double in less than two it it was a double in less than two years years years and I woke up one day there was an and I woke up one day there was an and I woke up one day there was an announcement that some Swedish company announcement that some Swedish company announcement that some Swedish company was buying it for 160. so the stock was buying it for 160. so the stock
Questionerwas buying it for 160. so the stock immediately goes like 155 I don't even wait for the deal to close we exit and move on and I don't know why that Swedish company didn't come in two years before that when was that 45 you know but you know this is the way the world works so it was things like that you know it was like there was no one's interested in the steel business and whatever else and so on so it was just kind of classic Ben Graham mathematical games and you just go from there
Questionerthe high memory of March 2020 is I don't have the dates right but you know the Berkshire Hathaway annual letter came out and he again spoke of you know he says the same thing effectively every year right and then someone wrote a piece and I'm sure I have it somewhere in my archives if someone said Buffett doesn't get it he's lost it yeah yeah he was on the cover of Barons you know
Questionerthe cover of Barons you know by Tech war and what's up Warren you know
Questioneryeah and you know and over time I have you know some of these guys are so smart a Warren Buffett manga he got to listen to them because then when even you know someone's like questioning their basic understanding you know irrationality is the dominant emotion and that's where you you know make a move
Questioneryeah so that's never left me and it's happened again and again right it's happened multiple times in the last 30 35 years
Questioneruh it's a great way to get a signal on what one should be doing but did you get to buy Berkshire Hathaway then then hit this uh low in the past 2020. I've I've never had much Berkshire Hathaway I've occasionally had it in the funds but there were so much other stuff that was way more way more mispriced yeah and more interesting so so generally I was
Questionermore interesting so so generally I was buying you know tanker companies and buying you know tanker companies and buying you know tanker companies and funeral homes funeral homes funeral homes all recordings old economy stuff well all recordings old economy stuff well all recordings old economy stuff well they were very pretty mispriced yeah they were very pretty mispriced yeah they were very pretty mispriced yeah
Otheryeah it's amazing right and and and yeah it's amazing right and and and yeah it's amazing right and and and actually just to just to continue the actually just to just to continue the actually just to just to continue the new the story further so did very well new the story further so did very well new the story further so did very well to 2007 and then the financial crisis I to 2007 and then the financial crisis I to 2007 and then the financial crisis I did not see coming did not see coming did not see coming
Questionerso from 2007 to 2009 the funds went down so from 2007 to 2009 the funds went down so from 2007 to 2009 the funds went down probably around 65 67 percent probably around 65 67 percent probably around 65 67 percent and the markets went down probably you and the markets went down probably you and the markets went down probably you know 37 or so in that period so we we know 37 or so in that period so we we know 37 or so in that period so we we went down a lot more than the markets went down a lot more than the markets went down a lot more than the markets did did did
Otherand I remember in like 2008 and 09 and I remember in like 2008 and 09 and I remember in like 2008 and 09 Commodities had been crushed you know Commodities had been crushed you know Commodities had been crushed you know commodity stocks and commodities and I commodity stocks and commodities and I commodity stocks and commodities and I was selling PE of three to buy PE of two was selling PE of three to buy PE of two was selling PE of three to buy PE of two you know that's kind of what my trades you know that's kind of what my trades you know that's kind of what my trades were were were
Questionerso I remember in 2009 after we bottomed so I remember in 2009 after we bottomed so I remember in 2009 after we bottomed in March 2009 in March 2009 in March 2009 we were up I think 140 for the year in we were up I think 140 for the year in we were up I think 140 for the year in 2009 and then gradually that recovery 2009 and then gradually that recovery 2009 and then gradually that recovery got underway where you know we started
Questionergot underway where you know we started to our money back and so on and one of the things I should have done is probably around 2012 or so I should have switched back to what I used to do originally growth investing so usually the best way to invest is to buy businesses that will you know grow over time that's usually going to be your it's just that sometimes you get periods but there's such extreme Euphoria where that strategy is going not going to work because you know you want to be buying things at 100 times earnings or whatever and it's just not going to work very well but I should have what I should have done is but by that time so I'd been running this gram Playbook now for 13 years and the Playbook had worked really well so it was just very comfortable right so I just kind of continued and I did not actually make the switch over to back to
Questioneractually make the switch over to back to the growth stocks Etc till around 2020 uh so I I basically I would say I was probably eight years or so behind now you know the thing is that there were things I was doing which still worked really well so for example in 2012 I made an investment in a company called Fiat Chrysler you know and and that was a huge multi-bagger we made over the years but inside Fiat Chrysler which at that time had a five billion dollar market cap so in 2012 Fiat Kaiser has a five billion dollar market cap and 135 billion in Revenue okay so it's trading at like less than four times less than like you know four percent of Revenue okay and they had brought in a rockstar CEO and I could see that a lot of things would change inside Fiat Chrysler a piece I didn't pay much attention to was 80 of Ferrari pay much attention to was 80 of Ferrari pay much attention to was 80 of Ferrari so they owned 80 Ferrari so
Questionerso they owned 80 Ferrari soso they owned 80 Ferrari so just to give you a sense I didn'tjust to give you a sense I didn'tjust to give you a sense I didn't capture all of it but basically incapture all of it but basically incapture all of it but basically in effect about one-third of thateffect about one-third of thateffect about one-third of that market cap was attributed to Ferrari somarket cap was attributed to Ferrari somarket cap was attributed to Ferrari so out of the 5 billion about one and aout of the 5 billion about one and aout of the 5 billion about one and a half billion was attributed Ferrarihalf billion was attributed Ferrarihalf billion was attributed Ferrari Ferrari is now about a 50 billion marketFerrari is now about a 50 billion marketFerrari is now about a 50 billion market cap by itselfcap by itselfcap by itself and then Fiat is also a lot of dividendsand then Fiat is also a lot of dividendsand then Fiat is also a lot of dividends and such and gone so what I'm saying isand such and gone so what I'm saying isand such and gone so what I'm saying is that even though I didn't switch tothat even though I didn't switch tothat even though I didn't switch to growth investing until later there weregrowth investing until later there weregrowth investing until later there were bets like via Chrysler bets in Indiabets like via Chrysler bets in Indiabets like via Chrysler bets in India like grain Industries and so on whichlike grain Industries and so on whichlike grain Industries and so on which did a really well huge multibaggers anddid a really well huge multibaggers anddid a really well huge multibaggers and then more recentlythen more recentlythen more recently I made the switch but I made the switchI made the switch but I made the switchI made the switch but I made the switch somewhat carefully because we still hadsomewhat carefully because we still hadsomewhat carefully because we still had in 22 a lot of euphoria you know thein 22 a lot of euphoria you know thein 22 a lot of euphoria you know the bubble popped we again got to crazybubble popped we again got to crazybubble popped we again got to crazy valuationsvaluationsvaluations and so that's where we are todayand seven in 2019and seven in 2019and seven in 2019 I'm sure I thought about it a lot why doI'm sure I thought about it a lot why doI'm sure I thought about it a lot why do you think you missed it that there is a
Questioneryou think you missed it that there is a Euphoria happening and you could get caught on it
Questionerwell I mean I think that in that period of seven to nine they were very small number of humans you could count on probably fingers of one hand who actually saw the whole bump you know you've seen the movie The Big Short and you know just to give you a side story about the bubble you know Michael burry in The Big Short so I know that God loves me and I'll give you some evidence of why God loves me so in 2008 I'm making a trip to San Jose California and Michael Murray's fund and Michael Murray is based in San Jose California and I don't know him but I know of him so I contact him and say hey Michael you don't know me but you know I'm a fund manager and I'm going to be in San Jose and do you want to grab coffee he says yeah just come by my office okay
Questionerhe says yeah just come by my office okay so this is like you know October of 2008so this is like you know October of 2008so this is like you know October of 2008 okay and I go to Michael burry's officeokay and I go to Michael burry's officeokay and I go to Michael burry's office and you know you've seen the guy playingand you know you've seen the guy playingand you know you've seen the guy playing the drumsohohoh I I'm I go to Michael Buddy's office andI I'm I go to Michael Buddy's office andI I'm I go to Michael Buddy's office and he's got these huge stacks of paper andhe's got these huge stacks of paper andhe's got these huge stacks of paper and he doesn't even you know he doesn't evenhe doesn't even you know he doesn't evenhe doesn't even you know he doesn't even like you knowlike you knowlike you know say hello welcome or any of that hesay hello welcome or any of that hesay hello welcome or any of that he launches straight into CD assets he sayslaunches straight into CD assets he sayslaunches straight into CD assets he says do you know what a credit default swabdo you know what a credit default swabdo you know what a credit default swab is I said no I have no idea and I'm notis I said no I have no idea and I'm notis I said no I have no idea and I'm not even looking to know what it is you knoweven looking to know what it is you knoweven looking to know what it is you know I'm not really interested then he goesI'm not really interested then he goesI'm not really interested then he goes into this huge detailed drill down withinto this huge detailed drill down withinto this huge detailed drill down with mememe on cds's and CDs squared and you knowon cds's and CDs squared and you knowon cds's and CDs squared and you know the tranches and how to short it and howthe tranches and how to short it and howthe tranches and how to short it and how real estate it's going to blow up andreal estate it's going to blow up andreal estate it's going to blow up and everything's gonna blow up and the wholeeverything's gonna blow up and the wholeeverything's gonna blow up and the whole Western world is going to blow up andWestern world is going to blow up andWestern world is going to blow up and and this is the way you play it okayand this is the way you play it okayand this is the way you play it okay so now all God could doso now all God could doso now all God could do is he could take the horse to the one
Questioneris he could take the horse to the one
Otherokay he took the horse to the epicenter
Questionerokay he took the horse to the epicenter of the best Lake okay the horse was too dumb to drink
Otherokay so the horse was taken to the water but the horse did not drink okay and so I came out of Barry's office saying okay that was weird what the f what the hell you know we're gonna kind of move on and of course then you know exactly what he was saying proceeds to happen you know and so the it was a kind of a a very interesting experience yeah so I I I did not see the the downturn being as severe as it ended up being I just my my way of investing is I really don't spend any time on macro you know I'm focused on particular businesses where those businesses might be growing going and that itself is a complicated thing figuring out the future of one business is complicated figuring out of the future of an economy you know it's
Otherthe future of an economy you know it's just a few humans that are gifted enough to do that I'm not one of them so so yeah I mean I think the the I would say that I was able to see the two thousand bubble mainly because I had made some private Investments in 98 99 which were in effect participating in the bubble and those had already blown up so by the time the fund started I had already seen the movie on the private markets the public markets has not had not fully woken up to the fact that this whole thing was a pack of cards so I'm not going to be a guy who's going to be able to see you know I would say that even buffered Among Us say that sometimes things are obvious and you can call it I mean I would say you know bubble and crypto we can call it you know but you might even say a bubble and smoke Snowflake and things like that you can
QuestionerSnowflake and things like that you can call some of those but for the most part usually you don't get these extremely clear signals when bubbles are underway when did you first hear of this covet and how did you think through it what you should do and what did you actually end up doing
Todd Combsyeah kovid was another one where I I think I did not really understand the severity of code so if you look at someone like Bill Ackman he really got it he got it really well in terms of covert and what was going to happen controversy around it but yeah yeah but uh yeah so I think I think when when kovid was when the first news of covert was hitting I just thought okay you know this will be something where you know we might have a few weeks of town whatever the virus will die out in the population and you know eventually we'll have a vaccine I did not expect anything spectacular out of it
Warrenspectacular out of it and actually when they deliberately shut down the whole economy that kind of blew my mind you know I said this is worse than 0809 because 0809 we're not deliberately trying to I mean the shutdown of the U.S economy and global economy on purpose is unprecedented it's never happened I mean we had a we had a Spanish flu you know 100 years ago no one shut down anything at that time and so it was not within you know my realm of ability to think that humans are going to deliberately shut down an entire economy that just blew my mind and so I think as covert is unfolding I was as surprised at anyone else and I was trying my best to basically try to make sure that the businesses that we owned were not going to get washed away so in general one of the things to remember about business and you know I saw this with my dad when I was growing up
Warrenwith my dad when I was growing up is businesses are very fragile almost all businesses are very fragile I mean if if a business loses revenue for a month something like 95 won't be around after that you know so the mortality rate it's like cutting off oxygen you know Bill Gates took the view very early in Microsoft that he wanted Microsoft to have enough cash so it could run for two years with no Revenue okay and Microsoft built a a cash Reserve that match that 99 businesses don't have no any ability to do you know they just don't have the favorable economics whoever generate that kind of cash so have that kind of staying power so so when you have something like covered when you're shutting down things and you're not allowing a business to get Revenue I mean you know Airlines hotels restaurants you know these were like immediate casualties and uh but then and
Questionerimmediate casualties and uh but then and what what saved a lot of them was this incredible amounts of government support but if we didn't have that support I mean I think the economy even today would be in in Terror so the the policy response was exceptional really mind-blowing actually but someone like me I'm no good at these things I may offer Ed on this a lot of people believe they call the covet trade right and I believe they were just plain lucky because no one knew how it's going to turn out right so they went out and in and they thought we timed it it's Pure Flow and I remember manga gave statement because I think Buffett there's a statement from Buffett very quickly that he'll not be speaking till the AGM so there was no need to wait for Buffy to speak but manga I think did a call or he spoke to CNBC I don't regulate and he said
Questionerand he said it if we came out on the other side of this crisis with more cash than we have now then that's the great scenario or something something to that effect basically plays utmost importance on having cash on the balance like the point you're making right sure
Questionerand here's the video Yeah Berkshire is really built so just to give an example berkshire's cash is not in any Bank I know I know I have I have a screenshot of that yeah had they've never had the cash in Banks because Warren has had a perspective that even JP Morgan basically you know it's not safe his perspective is he wants to make sure the cash is absolutely and certainly there he's not trying to maximize the man the yield on it so it's all sits in very short-term pressure short-term treasuries so I actually have a March April 2020 snapshot of the presentation he made on
Questionersnapshot of the presentation he made on the first of May actually yeah yeah yeah the first of May actually yeah yeah yeah the first of May actually yeah yeah yeah I think it was 107 billion dollars of I think it was 107 billion dollars of I think it was 107 billion dollars of cash or what is the amount like crazy cash or what is the amount like crazy cash or what is the amount like crazy amount of money or in short-term amount of money or in short-term amount of money or in short-term treasury bills treasury bills treasury bills yes oh my God that's the solution for yes oh my God that's the solution for yes oh my God that's the solution for everyone everyone everyone they've been running like that for 50 they've been running like that for 50 they've been running like that for 50 years that's amazing you know yeah years that's amazing you know yeah years that's amazing you know yeah okay moving on okay moving on okay moving on do you record like which was your first do you record like which was your first do you record like which was your first investment that you made for stock investment that you made for stock investment that you made for stock
Otherwell the the very the very first talks I well the the very the very first talks I well the the very the very first talks I bought there's two answers to that I bought there's two answers to that I bought there's two answers to that I think some of your audience might care think some of your audience might care think some of your audience might care about some of the stocks I bought in about some of the stocks I bought in about some of the stocks I bought in India so the in the US they were Tech India so the in the US they were Tech India so the in the US they were Tech Investments and they were Tech Investments and they were Tech Investments and they were Tech Investments mainly in Investments mainly in Investments mainly in software companies because I was very software companies because I was very software companies because I was very familiar with them so we were doing a familiar with them so we were doing a familiar with them so we were doing a lot of services lot of services lot of services for relational databases ibase Oracle for relational databases ibase Oracle for relational databases ibase Oracle and so on so I knew those businesses and so on so I knew those businesses and so on so I knew those businesses well I knew what their growth engines
Otherwell I knew what their growth engines were so we were generally invested in those types of things but in towards the end of 94 early 95 I opened an account with kotak in India and at that time there was no dmat there was no kotak bank and actually my banking which kotak introduced me to was Union Bank of India so they said you're gonna transfer funds to Union Bank the union bank will give it to our Securities trading arm we'll buy the stuff and not custody it and then when we sell it when you instruct us we'll send it back to Union bank and they can send it to you in dollars so I remember I I didn't put much I had about a million dollars with me I only invested one percent of that in India actually two percent about twenty thousand dollars okay and half of that ten thousand dollars I put into satyam computers and this was probably about 10 years
Otherand this was probably about 10 years beforeanything was wrong with Satya satyam wasanything was wrong with Satya satyam wasa perfectly normal company at that timea perfectly normal company at that timea perfectly normal company at that time all the books and everything were cleanall the books and everything were cleanall the books and everything were clean and such and I knew the business welland such and I knew the business welland such and I knew the business well because I used to meet them they werebecause I used to meet them they werebecause I used to meet them they were trying to do business with me theirtrying to do business with me theirtrying to do business with me their business deaf teams would meet me and Ibusiness deaf teams would meet me and Ibusiness deaf teams would meet me and I could see how they were growing in thecould see how they were growing in thecould see how they were growing in the US and and all of that it was you knowUS and and all of that it was you knowUS and and all of that it was you know growing at about 70 80 a year but thegrowing at about 70 80 a year but thegrowing at about 70 80 a year but the you know if you remember the early 90syou know if you remember the early 90syou know if you remember the early 90s in India mid 90sin India mid 90sin India mid 90s satyam's market cap was less than thesatyam's market cap was less than thesatyam's market cap was less than the value of their Hyderabad real estatevalue of their Hyderabad real estatevalue of their Hyderabad real estate so just the office space and all thatso just the office space and all thatso just the office space and all that they had there was no value actuallythey had there was no value actuallythey had there was no value actually being ascribed to a business that werebeing ascribed to a business that werebeing ascribed to a business that were growing about 80 a year with highgrowing about 80 a year with highgrowing about 80 a year with high marginsmarginsmargins and I remember the kotak analyst gave meand I remember the kotak analyst gave meand I remember the kotak analyst gave me a report that kotak had done on satyam Ia report that kotak had done on satyam Ia report that kotak had done on satyam I looked at that I look at the report Ilooked at that I look at the report Ilooked at that I look at the report I said this is total nonsense you you
Othersaid this is total nonsense you you don't even understand what the business is all about I said you're not even like the stock was at 40 rupees and shared a target of 55 rupees okay and the the Hyderabad real estate was something like 70 rupees a share and it was making something like 10 Rupees a share growing 40 50 60 a year so anyway I put I put ten thousand dollars into satyam and then you know when the bubble my so I bought four stocks in India at that time I bought satyam kotak Blue Dot and Sky pack Sky pack Courier okay and basically my I was only going to buy satyam kotak and Blue Dart and my thesis on Blue Dot and Sky pack was very simple that the Indian postal system was useless and if you wanted to get a package from anywhere to anywhere you had to use private couriers and there were two listed companies at that time it was
Otherlisted companies at that time it was Blue Dot and Sky pack and so I said there's as the Indian economy grows these two are huge beneficiaries as it turned out sky pack went nowhere eventually went to zero it basically disappeared for the most part and by the by 99 actually I remember in January 2000 so I got physical share certificates of all these talks they're kind of falling apart with all these signatures and stuff on them I just stuck them at the bottom of my desk drawer I said never need to open this drawer we can keep this forever I noticed that in January 2000 satyam is trading at like 6 000 rupees a share from 40 rupees it's gone up 150 150x and I had told some relatives of mine you know buys buys Satya and so on their whole days to start in the morning by looking at the newspaper what is happening and I told them listen I'm going to sell satyam because when I look
Othergoing to sell satyam because when I look at the math there's no way to justify this valuation there's no way to justify this valuation there's a number one that you don't understand the business this company is going to go to 50 000 rupees a share okay it's going to keep going okay they're trying to explain the it business to me so anyway I I was also concerned because I look at these share certificate that I had for satyam they're like piece of people that are like falling apart so I said I don't even know if I send it to India these are fake or real or what and I don't trust the Indian government will actually allow me to repatriate I gave them ten thousand I'll be pulling out one and a half million on satyam alone forget the other stocks I said I don't think they'll even pull the money back so I sent all the shares to otak I said sell all the shares okay they sold the
Othersell all the shares okay they sold the shares and I got like some 1.4 million shares and I got like some 1.4 million in proceeds so then I said move it to Union Bank okay and I told the Union Bank converted to dollars and wire it to me so the bank manager says to me you know Mr Barbara it's near the end of the month it will really make me look good if I do the wire like on the second or third you know like the 27th I said please be happy wire it on the third no problem okay and on the third money is in my us account no taxes no nothing everything's fine all done I said wow this works and then you know do that Sky pack and quota for five years had done nothing they were just sitting flat and one of the most stupid things I did was I said okay like I told you God loves me I said God loves me but I don't think he loves me so much I said he gave me 20 000 rupees in dollars in India became 1.4 million I
Otherin dollars in India became 1.4 million I said these others are still sitting at Tenth house so fine just close the positions move on so I sent all those shares to India and I told kotak sell all these shares and again I got my ten thousand dollars back actually God loved me more if I just paid attention so otak went up about 500 x from there so I had put only about twenty five hundred dollars into Kodak but anything at 500x is is a big number and blue dot went up a similar amount three four hundred X and I remember what happened is that they sent me one share certificate back 100 shares of Blue Dot and they said this is the fake certificate so I said Mr kotak you are the ones who bought these shares for me if it is fake you are responsible no no we have no such responsibility this is your problem so they don't have the same liability
Otherso they don't have the same liability law like this again like the U.S does so they send me these hundred shares and the 100 chance sat in my drawer for like 15 years and I every time I'd look at the shares I'd say fake I don't think this is fake so by that time I had started investing in India and I had a relationship with kotak they are custodians in India and I told the thing I said I didn't tell him it's fake or anything I said look I have 100 shares of Blue Dart and I would like to sell them they said look we need to demat it and all that we need to open account and all that so I said okay let's go to the process so I went through the process they sold the shares it actually wasn't fake and I got like I think about like eight or nine lakhs so that 100 shares okay which was I was thinking about three or four hundred X but it was a small piece
Questionerfour hundred X but it was a small piece of the of the pie and the the big theof the of the pie and the the big theof the of the pie and the the big the big lesson I got from all of that isbig lesson I got from all of that isbig lesson I got from all of that is that you know when you find yourself inthat you know when you find yourself inthat you know when you find yourself in the happy situation of the ownershipthe happy situation of the ownershipthe happy situation of the ownership of the fraction of a great businessof the fraction of a great businessof the fraction of a great business just like Monger saysjust like Monger saysjust like Monger says just sit on your assjust sit on your assjust sit on your ass there's nothing else to do so there wasthere's nothing else to do so there wasthere's nothing else to do so there was no reason for me to sell those thingsno reason for me to sell those thingsno reason for me to sell those things even now like you know we look ateven now like you know we look ateven now like you know we look at investor like Rakesh Jrinvestor like Rakesh Jrinvestor like Rakesh Jr right I mean great investor passed awayright I mean great investor passed awayright I mean great investor passed away last yearlast yearlast year he had a total of four hundred dollarshe had a total of four hundred dollarshe had a total of four hundred dollars when he was 25 years old and he startedwhen he was 25 years old and he startedwhen he was 25 years old and he started investing in the chartered accountantinvesting in the chartered accountantinvesting in the chartered accountant and he passed away with 5.8 billionand he passed away with 5.8 billionand he passed away with 5.8 billion he never manage outside money and wehe never manage outside money and wehe never manage outside money and we started a Saka air but none of the moneystarted a Saka air but none of the moneystarted a Saka air but none of the money came from businesses he started you knowcame from businesses he started you knowcame from businesses he started you know all of this was some passive investingall of this was some passive investingall of this was some passive investing and if you ignore everything Rakesh didand if you ignore everything Rakesh didand if you ignore everything Rakesh did so in 2003so in 2003so in 2003 he put aboutfour percent of his net worth into Titanfour percent of his net worth into Titanfour percent of his net worth into Titan
Questionerfour percent of his net worth into Titan right and he just kept it and that four percent which was only about 3.4 million dollars at that time that he put no Titan with dividences approaches more than 2 billion so even if Rakesh was everything else went to zero he was a useless at everything else the only thing he had to get right was the Titan purchase and more importantly the decision to hold that's it so it's a very forgiving business when I when I'm listening to you and you know you're narrating these stories you know and and you know you have all the humility you know there's there's all factors playing into your decisions but I talk about Graham a little bit the Graham approach you talk about you know how how you pick stocks you spend all those hours so if you were to so I don't want you to explain us your thought process you know that's there's
Questionerthought process you know that's there's too much for someone to absorb in this podcast can you sort of talk to us about two three four things which are like really the key things one should look at to minimize the chance of going wrong Maybe in a stock picking decision
Questioneryeah so I think the the best way to approach investing is what I would called anomaly based investing okay so basically we are in the business of looking at anomalies we are in the business of looking at things that make no sense and because we are in auction driven markets like what I saw with satyam in 95 right it just made no sense on any metric that it should be priced like that so like for example a few years back I started making trips to Turkey and turkey is even now I mean last year the Turkish market was up like 120 in dollars it had a huge year but even after going up that much
Questionerbut even after going up that much it is one of the cheapest markets in the world world world everyone and their brother has exited everyone and their brother has exited everyone and their brother has exited turkey no one has any interest in Turkey turkey no one has any interest in Turkey turkey no one has any interest in Turkey the inflation rate is 80 percent in the inflation rate is 80 percent in the inflation rate is 80 percent in 2019 2019 2019 I visited this company in Turkey I visited this company in Turkey I visited this company in Turkey where the market cap of 16 million where the market cap of 16 million where the market cap of 16 million dollars one six dollars one six dollars one six and the liquidation value liquidation and the liquidation value liquidation and the liquidation value liquidation value was 800 million value was 800 million value was 800 million Okay so Okay so Okay so and the liquidation value and the liquidation value and the liquidation value was one of the easiest things to figure was one of the easiest things to figure was one of the easiest things to figure out so this company out so this company out so this company has 12 million square feet of prime has 12 million square feet of prime has 12 million square feet of prime warehouse space warehouse space warehouse space which is 99 least which is 99 least which is 99 least inflation index leases to people like inflation index leases to people like inflation index leases to people like Ikea Amazon Carphone Mercedes Toyota Ikea Amazon Carphone Mercedes Toyota Ikea Amazon Carphone Mercedes Toyota Dupont Dupont Dupont Etc okay like pristine Etc okay like pristine Etc okay like pristine Client List Client List Client List and to build a warehouse in Turkey on and to build a warehouse in Turkey on and to build a warehouse in Turkey on average it costs eighty dollars a square average it costs eighty dollars a square average it costs eighty dollars a square foot foot foot so up eighty dollars low 12 million so up eighty dollars low 12 million so up eighty dollars low 12 million square feet low that's 960 million square feet low that's 960 million square feet low that's 960 million dollars there was 200 million of debt on dollars there was 200 million of debt on dollars there was 200 million of debt on their books it's worth 760 million
Questionertheir books it's worth 760 milliontheir books it's worth 760 million market cap is 16. okay so I remember mymarket cap is 16. okay so I remember mymarket cap is 16. okay so I remember my Turkish friend I had him take me toTurkish friend I had him take me toTurkish friend I had him take me to businesses that he owned I said I onlybusinesses that he owned I said I onlybusinesses that he owned I said I only want to see businesses that are alreadywant to see businesses that are alreadywant to see businesses that are already in your portfolio don't take me to somein your portfolio don't take me to somein your portfolio don't take me to some company you're not invested so he ownedcompany you're not invested so he ownedcompany you're not invested so he owned this companythis companythis company so I asked him is it a fraudso I asked him is it a fraudso I asked him is it a fraud I said so he said no I mean I whileI said so he said no I mean I whileI said so he said no I mean I while we're driving to meet the owners of thewe're driving to meet the owners of thewe're driving to meet the owners of the business he said no it'sbusiness he said no it'sbusiness he said no it's good guys running it and I met thegood guys running it and I met thegood guys running it and I met the father and son who run the business theyfather and son who run the business theyfather and son who run the business they came across as perfectly honest smartcame across as perfectly honest smartcame across as perfectly honest smart business people to me really smartbusiness people to me really smartbusiness people to me really smart actuallyactuallyactually and Not only was the value there then Iand Not only was the value there then Iand Not only was the value there then I spent an afternoon visiting all thespent an afternoon visiting all thespent an afternoon visiting all the warehouses and all thatwarehouses and all thatwarehouses and all that and then I saw 16 million dollars when Iand then I saw 16 million dollars when Iand then I saw 16 million dollars when I tried to buy it there'll be no stocktried to buy it there'll be no stocktried to buy it there'll be no stock available okay but because turkey is theavailable okay but because turkey is theavailable okay but because turkey is the market filled with gamblersmarket filled with gamblersmarket filled with gamblers and the trading volumes are extremely
Questionerand the trading volumes are extremely high people basically buy stocks at 10 o'clock and they sell at three okay their holding period that's that's it they don't even hold overnight okay it's a it's a gambling Den so Buffett has a quote he's saying the stock market is a mechanism to transfer wealth from the active to the inactive okay it could not be truer in Turkey so I started buying the shares and for about less than eight million dollars I got one third of the company okay so now at the time when I was buying the shares it was five Lira to one dollar today it is 19 Lira to one dollar the leader has collapsed okay in dollars the market cap has gone from 16 million to 350 million in the last four years okay now what has happened to liquidation value I was just in Turkey for two weeks is it's at least one and a half billion rents have gone up a lot building
Questionerrents have gone up a lot building material prices have gone up all these things have gone up so the price has moved up but the value and they are very smart Capital allocators they have done a bunch of smart things and they've increased the value so even after we've had this big run up we still have something that is trading at like one-fourth of what I think is and the thing is they will keep increasing the value of the business so all these years of all these arrows in the bag that I have taken what I have learned is this company in Turkey we just have to do one thing which is never ever sell it you know just it's very boring it does nothing it just sits there we are happy to let it sit there and it's it doesn't matter what the leader does because cement prices go up and steel prices go up and concrete prices go up and land prices go up and rents go up
Otherand land prices go up and rents go up and so it is automatically inflation indexed and in Turkey there's one business after another like this I'll give you another example which I think I just kind of gives you a example of So when you say you know when people are trying to invest we have a company in India called Varun beverages okay and Varun is the Pepsi bottler well most of India right I mean I think other than Andhra and Kashmir they have the rest of India I think last time I looked the market cap is about like 11 billion dollars okay they their Volume last year was a little less than 700 million cases so just remember that 700 million cases and 11 billion and it's growing you know I mean it's a great business and it'll grow a lot there is a Coke bottler in Turkey which is bottling for Coke but it's not just bottling in Turkey
Questionerjust bottling in Turkey it's bottling in about a dozen countries where they have the exclusive rights for the whole country one of the countries they have the exclusive rice to bottle is Pakistan okay so this company in turkey has the exclusive bottling rights in Pakistan in Pakistan 51 of the coke bottler is owned by the Coca-Cola Company in Atlanta and 49 is owned by this Turkish come okay Coca-Cola Enterprises in Atlanta sold recently agreed to sell the 51 to this Turkish company or 300 million dollars so basically the Pakistan bottler was valued at 600 million after sold over 300. in Pakistan the coke bottle or volume is 400 million cases a year okay Varun is little under 700 million so let's double it so 600 million is a value for 400 mil cases 1.2 billion or 800 million cases okay there may be some difference in the gold growth rate some difference in the gold growth rate
Questionersome difference in the gold growth rate but the bottler in Pakistan is sitting at 10 percent of the valuation of the bottler in India and Coke is a better brand so Between Coke and Pepsi you know people will go for Coke so it's actually the more dominant better brand so that now that coke bottler in Turkey they have operations in all these countries including turkey so the the market cap of that business which is about 1.6 billion cases a year is 2.8 billion it is one-fourth of the value of Varun beverages at almost three times right so anomaly it's an anomaly so one of three things is true Varun is overvalued or the coke bottler is undervalued or a combination of the two right and when we can look at cash flows we can look at many other things but the the thing is that even in Pakistan and in India the per capita consumption of Coke and Pepsi is extremely low
QuestionerCoke and Pepsi is extremely low if we fast forward 10 years or 20 years the poor Capital numbers will go up a lot the population will go up all of those numbers will change so in both places it's a good business Varun may even grow faster because Pakistan is having all kinds of issues but ten to one difference in value you know one is trading at 50 times trailing earnings the other is trading at nine times trailing so what we are looking for in investing is things that when you look at them you say you are astonished okay if you don't get astonished when you look at a stock about something just pass wait for something else that astonishes you because in auction driven markets you will find astonishing things it will not happen every day every week every year but you only need one Titan you only need one racer so one Coke bottle or you don't need too many things
Questionerbottle or you don't need too many things
Otherone Blue Dart
Questionerjust focus on the astonishing
Questioneryou mentioned that uh
Questionerjust sit here sit on your ass after you bought the stock right
Questionerbut there does come a time sometimes when you have to sell a stock
Questionerso when and what sort of do you look for
Warrenso selling is a lot harder than buying
WarrenI've heard that I have made I have made many many more selling mistakes than buying mistakes
Questionerokay
Warrenso what I have learned after all these arrows in the back on selling is basically be extremely reluctant to sell
Questionerokay so if first if a company
Warrenif a company is valuation is fully priced it's not time to sell
Warrenif it's overpriced it's still not time to sell
Warrenit has to be absolutely and totally egregious where you cannot come up with any way cash flows and the valuation to bridge the two with even heroic assumptions
Warrenso basically you know a business is
Questionerso basically you know a business is worth the sum of future cash will produce so now till Judgment Day discounted back if some company is earning one million dollars a year and the valuation is 200 million you bought it for 8 million now it's 200 million it it probably should not have been sold at even 30 million or 40 million or 50 million because that is within the realm of reason past 100 million 150 million You Can Let It Go so but basically it has to be at an extreme so we we need to be basically extremely averse to selling now if we have bought something where we are where we have very clear evidence the business is low quality the people are low quality the competition is intense absolutely you can so we have to the important thing with selling is separate the signal from the noise so when you are convinced you have real signal
Questionersignal and you don't have noise and you don't have noise and you don't have noise a company can have a bad quarter two a company can have a bad quarter two a company can have a bad quarter two quarters three quarter that's noise quarters three quarter that's noise quarters three quarter that's noise but if there is but if there is but if there is Integrity or management in question Integrity or management in question Integrity or management in question if there is competitors eating their if there is competitors eating their if there is competitors eating their lunch and they have kind of lost their lunch and they have kind of lost their lunch and they have kind of lost their competitive Advantage they're no longer competitive Advantage they're no longer competitive Advantage they're no longer the low cost produce and all these the low cost produce and all these the low cost produce and all these things so when things become secular things so when things become secular things so when things become secular and you're convinced they become secular and you're convinced they become secular and you're convinced they become secular so you one thing about selling is you so you one thing about selling is you so you one thing about selling is you don't need to rush don't need to rush don't need to rush you can be sloppy on the selling so if you can be sloppy on the selling so if you can be sloppy on the selling so if you find something is overvalued you find something is overvalued you find something is overvalued whatever take your time whatever take your time whatever take your time take your time to convince yourself that take your time to convince yourself that take your time to convince yourself that it's truly egregious it's truly egregious it's truly egregious if it's just simply overvalued don't do if it's just simply overvalued don't do if it's just simply overvalued don't do anything because it's a great way it's a great because it's a great way it's a great because it's a great way it's a great way to make your broker starve way to make your broker starve way to make your broker starve stop I know we don't have much time and I I know we don't have much time and I I know we don't have much time and I have a bunch of questions what are your thoughts on investing what are your thoughts on investing what are your thoughts on investing Beyond stocks due to Gold due to Beyond stocks due to Gold due to Beyond stocks due to Gold due to property due to debt is there anything
Questionerproperty due to debt is there anything else that comes to mind that you think people should look at and try and study and get good at it and make invest some money
Otheryeah so one there's one thing and very unusual about the stock market which does not exist in other markets the stock markets are auction driven it's buyers and sellers coming together in a Marketplace and setting prices auction driven markets have a very specific peculiarity they get depressed at times and they get euphoric at times and if I just you know randomly throw a dart at any stock listed on the Bombay Stock Exchange and I look at the 52-week range on that it will be like 60 to 130. or 100 to 250. just any stock you know even if you look at reliance or any blue chip stock you'll see a pretty wide range between the 52 low and the 50-week high now let's say I have a broker friend of
Questionernow let's say I have a broker friend of mine a real estate broker for a number and I own an apartment in Mumbai okay in car and I tell my broker friend listen I'm going to call you sometimes just tell me what my flight is worth these are sure no problem so you call him on January 1st he said what's my Flatwood he says your flat is worth six words you're feeling really good it's okay thank you then you call him the next day what's my flat worth he said it's worth six crores then you call them the third day he says listen idiot it's still worth six crores okay and because he's your friend he tolerates you he tolerates every day this stupid all you make to him and every day just write down the price he gives you finally after 30 days he tells you oh there's some movement it is 6.1 okay so you write down the six points you keep calling him
Otheryou keep calling him when you do the whole analysis for the when you do the whole analysis for the when you do the whole analysis for the whole year price of your flat has varied whole year price of your flat has varied whole year price of your flat has varied between six and seven years between six and seven years between six and seven years for the whole year at the most for the whole year at the most for the whole year at the most okay it is not gone to three crores to okay it is not gone to three crores to okay it is not gone to three crores to nine nine nine but if that flat was a listed company but if that flat was a listed company but if that flat was a listed company sitting inside a listed company sitting inside a listed company sitting inside a listed company it would be between 3 and 9. it would be between 3 and 9. it would be between 3 and 9. so just the taking the same asset and so just the taking the same asset and so just the taking the same asset and converting it into pieces of paper and converting it into pieces of paper and converting it into pieces of paper and shares and all that causes this shares and all that causes this shares and all that causes this attenuation so attenuation so attenuation so when we look at when we look at when we look at non-auction driven markets or non-auction driven markets or non-auction driven markets or non-auction driven assets non-auction driven assets non-auction driven assets so let's say for example I'm a private so let's say for example I'm a private so let's say for example I'm a private Equity investor I'm buying and selling Equity investor I'm buying and selling Equity investor I'm buying and selling Whole businesses Whole businesses Whole businesses what's going to happen is I'm going to what's going to happen is I'm going to what's going to happen is I'm going to be facing an intelligent seller be facing an intelligent seller be facing an intelligent seller so it's an intelligent buyer facing an so it's an intelligent buyer facing an so it's an intelligent buyer facing an intelligence unless there are like crazy intelligence unless there are like crazy intelligence unless there are like crazy things like covet or something going on things like covet or something going on things like covet or something going on you will end up with an intelligent you will end up with an intelligent you will end up with an intelligent price otherwise there'll be no deal
Questionerprice otherwise there'll be no deal
Questionerso when you have an intelligent buyer
Questionernow when I was looking at this company in Turkey which was 16 million market cap and I've told the owners of the business I'll give you 25 million please give me the whole business
Questionerthey would have just laughed me out of their own
Questionerokay but in the market it's available the whole business cannot be bought for 25 million but 10 20 30 can be part of them
Questionerokay so I the only time I have that doing something other than auction driven markets because I think they this particular Nuance of publicly traded stock exchanges all of that gives us a way to invest which is not available in all other asset classes
Questionerokay it's not available in gold it's not available in buying whole businesses the one time I used this knowledge for other purposes was in the 90s when I was when I was
Questionerin the 90s when I was when I was investing in Techinvesting in Techinvesting in Tech I used to notice that some softwareI used to notice that some softwareI used to notice that some software companiescompaniescompanies for trading at very high multiple like Ifor trading at very high multiple like Ifor trading at very high multiple like I knew they were growing a lot but theknew they were growing a lot but theknew they were growing a lot but the trailing PE was more than 100.trailing PE was more than 100.trailing PE was more than 100. so this company is growing 30 40 maybeso this company is growing 30 40 maybeso this company is growing 30 40 maybe it's undervalued possible okay but Iit's undervalued possible okay but Iit's undervalued possible okay but I can't bring myself to pay you know 100can't bring myself to pay you know 100can't bring myself to pay you know 100 times trailing earnings but what I tooktimes trailing earnings but what I tooktimes trailing earnings but what I took that as a signal to me in is that it hasthat as a signal to me in is that it hasthat as a signal to me in is that it has high growth so what I did is like therehigh growth so what I did is like therehigh growth so what I did is like there was a company called PeopleSoft HRwas a company called PeopleSoft HRwas a company called PeopleSoft HR software it required a lot ofsoftware it required a lot ofsoftware it required a lot of customization to implement in Fortunecustomization to implement in Fortunecustomization to implement in Fortune 500 companies500 companies500 companies I decided I will set up a PeopleSoftI decided I will set up a PeopleSoftI decided I will set up a PeopleSoft practice only because I saw that thepractice only because I saw that thepractice only because I saw that the valuation is so highvaluation is so highvaluation is so high now I don't even know how to spellnow I don't even know how to spellnow I don't even know how to spell people so to do a PeopleSoft practicepeople so to do a PeopleSoft practicepeople so to do a PeopleSoft practice I need to have a practice leaderI need to have a practice leaderI need to have a practice leader and a practice leader at that time wouldand a practice leader at that time wouldand a practice leader at that time would cost like quarter million three hundredcost like quarter million three hundredcost like quarter million three hundred thousand so I decided in my business
Questionerthousand so I decided in my business I'll take a chance I said 300 000 we can take a bet if it doesn't go we'll see so I place an ad for a people sub practice leader and within a few days I got connected to a guy and he looked exceptional great guy Paul Yates and only it's basically you know we gave him like a quarter million based salary and some upside whatever and he was going to start in two weeks okay now when he starts with my company I have no business in people's on day one it's going to be burning 20 25 000 a month so one week before he starts Paul Yates calls me and says the client where I'm working is asking if my new employer will give me to them on a Consulting basis to continue working on so I said Paul what what would they be paying he said they'll they'll be paying about three thousand dollars a day okay so I said Paul tell them yes
Otherokay so I said Paul tell them yes
Otherokay so now all has not started with me
Otherokay every month the billing is going to be sixty thousand okay and in a year it'll be seven hundred thousand like expense is 300 times
Otherso I said PeopleSoft what stock I saw is already giving me more than I mean if I look at the actual amount invested in the people who saw practice it was like thousand dollars for an ad okay I've only invested thousand dollars which I will make back on the first day that he starts working okay and his payroll will be paid later you know I'm not even paying the payroll till like he's worked in the meantime already built the client collection
Otherthen after a week Paul calls me again he says a client wants me to manage a team of about a dozen Developers and he's asking me if we can provide the team okay of 12 PeopleSoft development
Otherokay of 12 PeopleSoft development so I said Paul do you know so I said Paul do you know so I said Paul do you know PeopleSoft developers he said I'm the PeopleSoft developers he said I'm the PeopleSoft developers he said I'm the president of the user group in Chicago president of the user group in Chicago president of the user group in Chicago so I said do you know he said yeah so I said do you know he said yeah so I said do you know he said yeah I I know a dozen guys who I can bring I I know a dozen guys who I can bring I I know a dozen guys who I can bring so I said what will be they be paying so I said what will be they be paying so I said what will be they be paying for each of these guys he said about two for each of these guys he said about two for each of these guys he said about two thousand dollars a day each thousand dollars a day each thousand dollars a day each I said tell them yes okay so we hired I said tell them yes okay so we hired I said tell them yes okay so we hired these dozen people for 100 150 000 each these dozen people for 100 150 000 each these dozen people for 100 150 000 each and they all came to work too so what I and they all came to work too so what I and they all came to work too so what I realized is that better than investing realized is that better than investing realized is that better than investing in the stock market in the stock market in the stock market is just look at the highest PE software is just look at the highest PE software is just look at the highest PE software company which needs services and start company which needs services and start company which needs services and start that Service practice because it's that Service practice because it's that Service practice because it's telling you the growth is very high telling you the growth is very high telling you the growth is very high and and and then I started doing that so and and and then I started doing that so and and and then I started doing that so then we set up a business objects then we set up a business objects then we set up a business objects practice practice practice okay and so suddenly the I.T business is okay and so suddenly the I.T business is okay and so suddenly the I.T business is on steroids okay because of this stuff on steroids okay because of this stuff on steroids okay because of this stuff so that's the only time when I took data so that's the only time when I took data so that's the only time when I took data over auction driven market and I didn't
Questionerover auction driven market and I didn't invest in those companies but we made more by not investing so that was the only time when I kind of used it in a weird way but I would say that you know one of the things about life is that you want to specialize you want to be an inch wide and a mile deep okay so we have a mouse trap we have auction driven markets we don't need to go hunting in other less favorable pastures of this uh this PeopleSoft story that you tell us yes it's like your father finding opportunity gaps you found it but I found the Gap because I was a investor investor yeah no I'm looking at I couldn't buy I knew the company was great I knew the stock was great but I couldn't buy the stock because I just couldn't do that fascinating fascinating tough question how do you you have tips you have kids yeah I have two daughters two daughters
Questioneryeah I have two daughters two daughters
Questionerhow do you teach them about money and do they really listen to you or is it dad's dad right do they actually sit down with you and try and absorb all your life life learnings on investing and how to manage money
Otheryeah actually so I'll give you an answer because it's it's worked out beautifully so I think about 25 years ago there was this guy I was in this group in YPO and this guy had come to talk to us Bill Harlow and Bill had basically been part of a buyout of a chemical company from his employer and eventually that got sold and you know he ended up with like 60 70 million dollars he did really well and he had these you know teenage kids whatever and what he did was when they were approaching 18. he walked him into Goldman Sachs opened accounts for them and put six million dollars in their account
Otheraccount and he said this money is your money you have full control of this at 18. to do anything you want with it you can buy Ferraris buy drugs you can use it for Education whatever you want and he told them that the reason I'm giving you this money in the reason I'm giving it at 18 because I don't want you to make career choices based on what pays the most or based on what is people are saying you should do this or you should do that I would like you to make career choices based on what you are most passionate about so you have enough money to live a comfortable life even if you have a profession which doesn't pay very well and when Bill Harlow came to talk to us his kids were already in their 30s so he said one guy is a postdoc I mean he did a he did a PhD in physics and then he went to teach physics in high school he wanted to teach high
Otherhigh school he wanted to teach highhigh school he wanted to teach high school kids so he says the high schoolschool kids so he says the high schoolschool kids so he says the high school physics teacher that doesn't get paidphysics teacher that doesn't get paidphysics teacher that doesn't get paid muchmuchmuch but he lives in a two million dollarbut he lives in a two million dollarbut he lives in a two million dollar homehomehome okay and he loves his life and he saidokay and he loves his life and he saidokay and he loves his life and he said the Second Son did a masters inthe Second Son did a masters inthe Second Son did a masters in architecture he had the architecturalarchitecture he had the architecturalarchitecture he had the architectural firm and doing finefirm and doing finefirm and doing fine so he said that basically he did notso he said that basically he did notso he said that basically he did not want towant towant to set it up so that the money wasset it up so that the money wasset it up so that the money was dribbling out to them at 30 or 35 or 40.dribbling out to them at 30 or 35 or 40.dribbling out to them at 30 or 35 or 40. sososo an inheritance is only really relevantan inheritance is only really relevantan inheritance is only really relevant to the person receiving itto the person receiving itto the person receiving it it comes very early in lifeit comes very early in lifeit comes very early in life later in life it really has no meaninglater in life it really has no meaninglater in life it really has no meaning no we really can't do a whole lot withno we really can't do a whole lot withno we really can't do a whole lot with it what I had done my daughters is whenit what I had done my daughters is whenit what I had done my daughters is when I heard the story I like the story inI heard the story I like the story inI heard the story I like the story in there yes we have these this law GMAthere yes we have these this law GMAthere yes we have these this law GMA accounts unified gift to miners act soaccounts unified gift to miners act soaccounts unified gift to miners act so we're basically we can give fifteenwe're basically we can give fifteenwe're basically we can give fifteen thousand dollars a year it used to bethousand dollars a year it used to bethousand dollars a year it used to be about ten thousand dollars a year ofabout ten thousand dollars a year of
Questionerabout ten thousand dollars a year of each parent to each kid or anyone each parent to each kid or anyone each parent to each kid or anyone actually actually actually and it's tax-free and it's tax-free and it's tax-free and I set up these accounts for them and and I set up these accounts for them and and I set up these accounts for them and I used to invest the money in like three I used to invest the money in like three I used to invest the money in like three four stocks in these accounts and the four stocks in these accounts and the four stocks in these accounts and the way the ugma account works is that 18 way the ugma account works is that 18 way the ugma account works is that 18 they get full control they get full control they get full control just like what Bill Harlow did and what just like what Bill Harlow did and what just like what Bill Harlow did and what happened with these accounts which we happened with these accounts which we happened with these accounts which we were putting like 20 30 000 a year in is were putting like 20 30 000 a year in is were putting like 20 30 000 a year in is that they've done really well with the that they've done really well with the that they've done really well with the Investments and it was a solid seven Investments and it was a solid seven Investments and it was a solid seven figure some in both their accounts and figure some in both their accounts and figure some in both their accounts and when they were about 12 or 13 years old when they were about 12 or 13 years old when they were about 12 or 13 years old I had sat them down I had sat them down I had sat them down and I explained to them that this and I explained to them that this and I explained to them that this account is there and I also explained to account is there and I also explained to account is there and I also explained to them that Beyond this account nothing them that Beyond this account nothing them that Beyond this account nothing else is coming to them else is coming to them else is coming to them and it's a sizeable amount I said even and it's a sizeable amount I said even and it's a sizeable amount I said even if we are not doing well your college is if we are not doing well your college is if we are not doing well your college is covered and exactly what Bill Harlow covered and exactly what Bill Harlow covered and exactly what Bill Harlow told his kids I told my kids which is told his kids I told my kids which is
Warrentold his kids I told my kids which is basically pick professions based on your passions don't look at what is the flavor of the day or what people are saying or what will be good to talk about any of those things actually it worked out beautifully so my younger daughter she's going to finish her PhD in Psychology in another I think year and a half and she wants to be a therapist and she actually for a PhD she wanted to support herself so she never bothered with the money or whatever else the older one basically now has started an investment fund I actually never talked to either of my kids ever about becoming an investor I always told them do what you love so it's not like the Apple didn't fall far from the tree it fell directly under the tree okay and she actually has very good instincts and raising money and doing well and so I think that will
Otherand doing well and so I think that will work out well so basically I think thework out well so basically I think thework out well so basically I think the thing is that as parents we have 18thing is that as parents we have 18thing is that as parents we have 18 years to transfer valuesyears to transfer valuesyears to transfer values if we have not transferred values inif we have not transferred values inif we have not transferred values in that period of timethat period of timethat period of time you can give them nothing and you stillyou can give them nothing and you stillyou can give them nothing and you still have a problemhave a problemhave a problem and and on the other hand if the valuesand and on the other hand if the valuesand and on the other hand if the values are transferred then the money isare transferred then the money isare transferred then the money is actually going to end up being a hugeactually going to end up being a hugeactually going to end up being a huge positive so their friends all theirpositive so their friends all theirpositive so their friends all their friends have pursued all these stemfriends have pursued all these stemfriends have pursued all these stem degrees and you know whatever else likedegrees and you know whatever else likedegrees and you know whatever else like you know what is going to be hot andyou know what is going to be hot andyou know what is going to be hot and what is whatever and both of them reallywhat is whatever and both of them reallywhat is whatever and both of them really never went down that path the degreesnever went down that path the degreesnever went down that path the degrees they went to the schools they went tothey went to the schools they went tothey went to the schools they went to they just looked at what they werethey just looked at what they werethey just looked at what they were interested in and they just went downinterested in and they just went downinterested in and they just went down that path which I think was excellent Ithat path which I think was excellent Ithat path which I think was excellent I find that very fascinating you know Ifind that very fascinating you know Ifind that very fascinating you know I thought you're going to go in some otherthought you're going to go in some otherthought you're going to go in some other direction when you spoke about the billdirection when you spoke about the bill
Questionerdirection when you spoke about the bill Hollow story but uh it's a complete uh revelation thank you for sharing that uh I've got two quick questions I'm going to keep the last one about giving money that's the most critical question I have to get through it but before that talk to us a little bit about reading and multi-disciplinary reading and you know give our listeners viewers some advice on you know how broad should it be how Global should it be how they can you know use that reading process to become better options of themselves
Questioneryeah so you know I am I'm buying books all the time you know different I I read something some guy recommend some books whatever else and you know or some podcasts whatever probably more than half the books in my library have not read yet okay so there's a large amount that I have not yet gotten and a lot of books that I pick up to
Questionerand a lot of books that I pick up to read I don't finish you know they just don't appeal to me whatever what I'm looking for is I just go through my library looking for something that is interesting to me at the time and the book has to really Draw Me In in the first 10 20 Pages you know I don't really get drawn in I will just move to something else and but you know it's a very magical feeling when you're reading something and it really draws you in and investing investing is a very broad discipline you know the kinds of things that affect the future of a business is just a huge Broad array of factors so understanding humans understanding nuances of what type of business is likely to do well have staying power all these things just so you could be reading a book on you know some political leader spoke on health or you could be reading a book on some
Warrenyou could be reading a book on some business biography all knowledge is cumulative so my my objective in reading the most important objective is I have to be having fun I have to be having fun I have to be enjoying what I am reading just like I I try to enjoy my day you know I work on things that are interesting to me I don't believe in retirement I will never retire I could have retired never worked after I was about 33 years old I'm 33 till now there was no reason for me to work for money but it would have been a terrible life you know it was a useless life so basically every day I choose to do the things that I want to do and the reading is also a choice and so different things come up uh I am very biased towards business biographies that's my favorite genre but I'm reading a lot of other things as well but you know like recently I read a book on the
Questionerknow like recently I read a book on the munjalsmunjalsmunjals you know Hero Honda right and it wasyou know Hero Honda right and it wasyou know Hero Honda right and it was written by one of the one of the kidswritten by one of the one of the kidswritten by one of the one of the kids and it was a great read you know I meanand it was a great read you know I meanand it was a great read you know I mean I think just that that Journey that theyI think just that that Journey that theyI think just that that Journey that they took it was one of the things I learnedtook it was one of the things I learnedtook it was one of the things I learned which was a revelation to mewhich was a revelation to mewhich was a revelation to me is you know we we think bicyclesis you know we we think bicyclesis you know we we think bicycles a very low Tech you know the idea witha very low Tech you know the idea witha very low Tech you know the idea with the munjals was that here's this youthe munjals was that here's this youthe munjals was that here's this you know multinational Japanese conglomerateknow multinational Japanese conglomerateknow multinational Japanese conglomerate HondaHondaHonda they bypass all the main large Indianthey bypass all the main large Indianthey bypass all the main large Indian conglomerates when they're looking for aconglomerates when they're looking for aconglomerates when they're looking for a partnerpartnerpartner and they partner with a bicycle companyand they partner with a bicycle companyand they partner with a bicycle company right I mean that's just lies in theright I mean that's just lies in theright I mean that's just lies in the face of logic or rational anythingface of logic or rational anythingface of logic or rational anything they would have met the tatas they wouldthey would have met the tatas they wouldthey would have met the tatas they would have met all these players you know theyhave met all these players you know theyhave met all these players you know they bypass all of them and what I learnedbypass all of them and what I learnedbypass all of them and what I learned when I've read that book is that awhen I've read that book is that awhen I've read that book is that a bicycle is actually not that simplebicycle is actually not that simplebicycle is actually not that simple when they broke down all the different
Questionerwhen they broke down all the different parts there's a lot of specialization we take it for granted because it's so mature and there's so much supply chain and but in the early days they had to like many by many times make those parts themselves so actually they got a lot of expertise the brand transition from a bicycle to motorcycle especially when they're getting a collaboration with Honda was a relatively simple one for them what was very important to Honda was the family values and the values and that was really what Honda was after and they got some great values and it was a great partnership so you know I think to me the biographies are the are the best
QuestionerI love micro feedback just love them my last question to you
Questioneruh talk to us about the dakshana foundation I hope I'm pronouncing it right uh I uh did I see it on your Twitter
Questioneruh I uh did I see it on your Twitter thread you'd post a letter Warren Buffett had sent about the annual report of dakshana just talk to us for a few minutes about uh your thoughts on giving on dakshana what you're trying to achieve hopefully it'll be an inspiration for some of us who are listening and viewing and to maybe start that Journey sooner than later
Questioneryeah so I think the the Genesis of dakshana really came from this notion that I read with Buffett where you know he was talking about the fact that large inheritances do more harm than could and so he was saying I want to give my kids enough money for them to do anything they want but not enough money to do nothing right so what is that number it's a kind of interesting question but basically you know large inheritances will end up really robbing the person of you know leveraging their
Warrenof you know leveraging their capabilities and so on socapabilities and so on socapabilities and so on so what what we tried to do with mywhat what we tried to do with mywhat what we tried to do with my daughters was we gave them a sum thatdaughters was we gave them a sum thatdaughters was we gave them a sum that would give them a portionwould give them a portionwould give them a portion but it wasn't like it would be an IVbut it wasn't like it would be an IVbut it wasn't like it would be an IV trip for the whole life you know andtrip for the whole life you know andtrip for the whole life you know and Buffett says you know if you're JesseBuffett says you know if you're JesseBuffett says you know if you're Jesse Owens son you know SprinterOwens son you know SprinterOwens son you know Sprinter he said you're not going to become thehe said you're not going to become thehe said you're not going to become the best printer if you start 100 meterbest printer if you start 100 meterbest printer if you start 100 meter dashes at the 40 meter line he said it'sdashes at the 40 meter line he said it'sdashes at the 40 meter line he said it's okay to put your son at the 10 meterokay to put your son at the 10 meterokay to put your son at the 10 meter linelineline but not the 40 meter line so I knew thatbut not the 40 meter line so I knew thatbut not the 40 meter line so I knew that basically with the compounding Journeybasically with the compounding Journeybasically with the compounding Journey we would end up with more money than wewe would end up with more money than wewe would end up with more money than we needed or could consume in a lifetime soneeded or could consume in a lifetime soneeded or could consume in a lifetime so the only thing you can do if you're notthe only thing you can do if you're notthe only thing you can do if you're not going to give it to your gene pool isgoing to give it to your gene pool isgoing to give it to your gene pool is recycle back to society and actuallyrecycle back to society and actuallyrecycle back to society and actually giving money away is more difficult thangiving money away is more difficult thangiving money away is more difficult than making it choices are like poverty andmaking it choices are like poverty andmaking it choices are like poverty and education and health care andeducation and health care andeducation and health care and environment all of these are very
Otherenvironment all of these are very complicated problems it's really tough nuts to crack and so with dakshana what I wanted to do was I wanted to start early in life so that I got some experience I wanted to take the arrows in the back and get better at giving so dakshana started when I was 42. and the idea was to give I set up a formula giveaway like two percent of my net worth every year and was really designed to be like a tuition bill pay a pay tuition so you learn as it turned out we got immediate traction and we got some great people in India and dakshina just took off right it has a great model and it was a great model coupled with a great team I did not have that much to do with it other than the funding and the direction I mean I'm not based in India all the operations in India it's a fairly large team now and basically what
Otherfairly large team now and basically what what we are doing is we are identifying what we are doing is we are identifying what we are doing is we are identifying very very bright but very poor 16 to 18 very very bright but very poor 16 to 18 very very bright but very poor 16 to 18 year olds and then we prep them for one year olds and then we prep them for one year olds and then we prep them for one or two years and they take the IIT or or two years and they take the IIT or or two years and they take the IIT or medical entrance exams medical entrance exams medical entrance exams and the iits have like a 1.4 percent and the iits have like a 1.4 percent and the iits have like a 1.4 percent admit rate admit rate admit rate and we get 60 to 80 of the kids into IIT and we get 60 to 80 of the kids into IIT and we get 60 to 80 of the kids into IIT so our admit rate is you know it's so our admit rate is you know it's so our admit rate is you know it's almost 100 percent and if I look include almost 100 percent and if I look include almost 100 percent and if I look include the niits is approaching 100 so and in the niits is approaching 100 so and in the niits is approaching 100 so and in medical it's similar it is pretty high medical it's similar it is pretty high medical it's similar it is pretty high and the thing is that we we spend about and the thing is that we we spend about and the thing is that we we spend about three thousand dollars per kid three thousand dollars per kid three thousand dollars per kid you know that's approximately what it you know that's approximately what it you know that's approximately what it costs us over one or two years or each costs us over one or two years or each costs us over one or two years or each each kid each kid each kid the transformation over the transformation over the transformation over five or six years five or six years five or six years in the family's well-being so typically in the family's well-being so typically in the family's well-being so typically these kids are coming from families these kids are coming from families these kids are coming from families where the income is like you know less where the income is like you know less where the income is like you know less than six seven thousand rupees or less than six seven thousand rupees or less than six seven thousand rupees or less than a hundred dollars a month than a hundred dollars a month than a hundred dollars a month and their Rural and quite poor
Otherand their Rural and quite poor and you know they'll graduate and be making five seven ten lakhs to start and then it just keeps going up from there so it was just a very no-brainer so you know if I if I see that there's a family making let's say one lakh a year and I tell tell you Rahul I'll give you five lakhs make their income five lakhsing okay basically it cannot be done you know you could try various things what we are what we are doing is we are selecting families where the kid is very bright so their income is low but the horsepower raw horsepower is very high and then we are harnessing that horsepower and connecting it to the global economy and when once we harness that and connect it we can easily take the income to five or ten and so that engine works if you harness the brains and you know we are spending three thousand dollars
Otherdollarsdollars the government spends on a subsidy basisthe government spends on a subsidy basisthe government spends on a subsidy basis one and a quarter croreone and a quarter croreone and a quarter crore for each kid at IIT over four yearsfor each kid at IIT over four yearsfor each kid at IIT over four years that's the tune of the governmentthat's the tune of the governmentthat's the tune of the government subsidy the government is spending aboutsubsidy the government is spending aboutsubsidy the government is spending about north of like 20 000 crores on the IITnorth of like 20 000 crores on the IITnorth of like 20 000 crores on the IIT so the basically two or three lakhs weso the basically two or three lakhs weso the basically two or three lakhs we spendspendspend is matched like 30 or 40 to 1 by theis matched like 30 or 40 to 1 by theis matched like 30 or 40 to 1 by the government which is why we're able togovernment which is why we're able togovernment which is why we're able to liftliftlift and what is happening with dakshana isand what is happening with dakshana isand what is happening with dakshana is that we're able to redirect that moneythat we're able to redirect that moneythat we're able to redirect that money from the middle class to the poolfrom the middle class to the poolfrom the middle class to the pool so it's it's actually utilizing thoseso it's it's actually utilizing thoseso it's it's actually utilizing those funds by the government in a better wayfunds by the government in a better wayfunds by the government in a better way
Questionerfascinating you know it's alwaysfascinating you know it's alwaysfascinating you know it's always inspirational to hearinspirational to hearinspirational to hear uh you know such about such efforts souh you know such about such efforts souh you know such about such efforts so you know congrats to you and to youryou know congrats to you and to youryou know congrats to you and to your team here for for doing this how manyteam here for for doing this how manyteam here for for doing this how many years have you been uh uh doing this nowyears have you been uh uh doing this nowyears have you been uh uh doing this now
Otherdakshana dakshana started in 2007 2007.dakshana dakshana started in 2007 2007.dakshana dakshana started in 2007 2007. yeah so you celebrated 15 years yeahyeah so you celebrated 15 years yeahyeah so you celebrated 15 years yeah yeah it's uh almost 16 years yeah
Questioneryeah it's uh almost 16 years yeah yeah time flies and our oldest grads are in their 30s wow some are making like more than half a million a year we have some that have quit IIT and done startups and they've been funded by VCS so a lot of good things going on are those there's a union reunions and all would be fantastic yeah I am yeah it's a it's a it's a great Alum Network yes wonderful wonderful many congrats once again since I have you any one idea of thought you would want to leave our listeners and visitors with
Otherwell I would I would say that the the idea you know an important idea to keep in mind is the magic of compounding so you know Einstein calls it the eighth wonder of the world compounding is eight one so if you think about compounding there are really three factors that drive the result starting capital the
Otherthethe annualized rate of returnannualized rate of returnannualized rate of return and the length of the runwayand the length of the runwayand the length of the runway so if you have a very low rate ofso if you have a very low rate ofso if you have a very low rate of compoundingcompoundingcompounding and you have a very low amount ofand you have a very low amount ofand you have a very low amount of starting capitalstarting capitalstarting capital but the runway is really longbut the runway is really longbut the runway is really long you will again end up with astonishingyou will again end up with astonishingyou will again end up with astonishing resultsresultsresults so there's an interplay we don't haveso there's an interplay we don't haveso there's an interplay we don't have the time to go into it but there's thethe time to go into it but there's thethe time to go into it but there's the interplay between these three factorsinterplay between these three factorsinterplay between these three factors wherewherewhere this modest amount of savings everythis modest amount of savings everythis modest amount of savings every month going into an sipmonth going into an sipmonth going into an sip being put into an index fund and justbeing put into an index fund and justbeing put into an index fund and just done over a lifetime and you're suddenlydone over a lifetime and you're suddenlydone over a lifetime and you're suddenly going to wake up and you're a wealthygoing to wake up and you're a wealthygoing to wake up and you're a wealthy copcopcop you know you didn't need to do a wholeyou know you didn't need to do a wholeyou know you didn't need to do a whole lot didn't you save a whole it all justlot didn't you save a whole it all justlot didn't you save a whole it all just worked out so in that case it's theworked out so in that case it's theworked out so in that case it's the length of the runway so starting earlylength of the runway so starting earlylength of the runway so starting early is really importantis really importantis really important having the savings rate is reallyhaving the savings rate is reallyhaving the savings rate is really important and then the rest of it isimportant and then the rest of it isimportant and then the rest of it is just the magic of compounding and youjust the magic of compounding and youjust the magic of compounding and you don't need to be a stock picker you
Otherdon't need to be a stock picker you don't need to be a stock picker you don't need to find an investment advisor don't need to find an investment advisor don't need to find an investment advisor you just buy the mid cap or small cap you just buy the mid cap or small cap you just buy the mid cap or small cap index and you're done
Questionerupload Manish thank you very much for upload Manish thank you very much for upload Manish thank you very much for taking time out we overshot our timeline taking time out we overshot our timeline taking time out we overshot our timeline so thank you for commentating us it was so thank you for commentating us it was so thank you for commentating us it was wonderful wonderful uh talking to you wonderful wonderful uh talking to you wonderful wonderful uh talking to you that's a dream come true that's a dream come true that's a dream come true
Otherwell likewise I had a I had a lot of fun well likewise I had a I had a lot of fun well likewise I had a I had a lot of fun and I look forward to the to the final and I look forward to the to the final and I look forward to the to the final clip when we when we release it that'll clip when we when we release it that'll clip when we when we release it that'll be great great thank you Manish all be great great thank you Manish all be great great thank you Manish all right thank you see you bye right thank you see you bye right thank you see you bye thank you thank you thank you