the only person who can cause you morethe only person who can cause you more harm than a thief with a dagger is aharm than a thief with a dagger is aharm than a thief with a dagger is a journalist with ajournalist with ajournalist with a pen the following is a conversation withpen the following is a conversation withpen the following is a conversation with Bill Amman a legendary activist investorBill Amman a legendary activist investorBill Amman a legendary activist investor who has been part of some of the biggestwho has been part of some of the biggestwho has been part of some of the biggest and at times controversial trades inand at times controversial trades inand at times controversial trades in history also he is fearlessly vocal on Xhistory also he is fearlessly vocal on Xhistory also he is fearlessly vocal on X FKA Twitter and uses the platform toFKA Twitter and uses the platform toFKA Twitter and uses the platform to fight for ideas he believes in forfight for ideas he believes in forfight for ideas he believes in for example he was a central figure in theexample he was a central figure in theexample he was a central figure in the resignation of the president of Harvardresignation of the president of Harvardresignation of the president of Harvard University Claud Dean gay The Saga ofUniversity Claud Dean gay The Saga ofUniversity Claud Dean gay The Saga of which we discuss in thiswhich we discuss in thiswhich we discuss in this episode This Is The Lex Freedman podcastepisode This Is The Lex Freedman podcastepisode This Is The Lex Freedman podcast to support it please check out ourto support it please check out ourto support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dearsponsors in the description and now dearsponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Billfriends here's Billfriends here's Bill Amman in your lecture on the basics ofAmman in your lecture on the basics ofAmman in your lecture on the basics of finance and investing you uh mention afinance and investing you uh mention afinance and investing you uh mention a book intelligent investor by Benjaminbook intelligent investor by Benjaminbook intelligent investor by Benjamin Graham as being formative in your lifeGraham as being formative in your lifeGraham as being formative in your life what key lesson do you take away fromwhat key lesson do you take away fromwhat key lesson do you take away from that book that informs your own invest
that book that informs your own investthat book that informs your own invest sure actually it was the firstsure actually it was the firstsure actually it was the first investment book I read and uh as such itinvestment book I read and uh as such itinvestment book I read and uh as such it was kind of the inspiration for mywas kind of the inspiration for mywas kind of the inspiration for my career and a lot of my life so importantcareer and a lot of my life so importantcareer and a lot of my life so important book you know bear in mind this is sortbook you know bear in mind this is sortbook you know bear in mind this is sort of after the Great Depression peopleof after the Great Depression peopleof after the Great Depression people lost confidence in investing in marketslost confidence in investing in marketslost confidence in investing in markets World War Two and then he writes thisWorld War Two and then he writes thisWorld War Two and then he writes this book it's for like the average man andbook it's for like the average man andbook it's for like the average man and basically he says that you have tobasically he says that you have tobasically he says that you have to understand the difference between priceunderstand the difference between priceunderstand the difference between price and value right price is what you payand value right price is what you payand value right price is what you pay value is what you get and he said ' thevalue is what you get and he said ' thevalue is what you get and he said ' the stock market is here to serve you rightstock market is here to serve you rightstock market is here to serve you right and it's a bit like the neighbor thatand it's a bit like the neighbor thatand it's a bit like the neighbor that comes by every day and makes you ancomes by every day and makes you ancomes by every day and makes you an offer for your house makes you a stupidoffer for your house makes you a stupidoffer for your house makes you a stupid offer you ignore it uh makes you a greatoffer you ignore it uh makes you a greatoffer you ignore it uh makes you a great offer you can take it and that's theoffer you can take it and that's theoffer you can take it and that's the stock market and the key is to figurestock market and the key is to figurestock market and the key is to figure out what something's worth and you haveout what something's worth and you have
out what something's worth and you have to kind of weigh it he talked about theto kind of weigh it he talked about theto kind of weigh it he talked about the difference between you said the stockdifference between you said the stockdifference between you said the stock market in the short term is a votingmarket in the short term is a votingmarket in the short term is a voting machine it represents speculativemachine it represents speculativemachine it represents speculative interests you know supply and demand ofinterests you know supply and demand ofinterests you know supply and demand of people uh in the short term term but inpeople uh in the short term term but inpeople uh in the short term term but in the long term it's the stock market's athe long term it's the stock market's athe long term it's the stock market's a weighing machine you know much moreweighing machine you know much moreweighing machine you know much more accurate it's going to tell you whataccurate it's going to tell you whataccurate it's going to tell you what something is worth and so if you cansomething is worth and so if you cansomething is worth and so if you can Divine what something's worth then youDivine what something's worth then youDivine what something's worth then you can really take advantage of the marketcan really take advantage of the marketcan really take advantage of the market because it's really here to to help youbecause it's really here to to help youbecause it's really here to to help you and that's kind of the message of theand that's kind of the message of theand that's kind of the message of the book in that same way there's a kind ofbook in that same way there's a kind ofbook in that same way there's a kind of difference between speculation anddifference between speculation anddifference between speculation and investing yeah speculation is just a bitinvesting yeah speculation is just a bitinvesting yeah speculation is just a bit like buying trading uh crypto rightlike buying trading uh crypto rightlike buying trading uh crypto right you're strong words well uh short-termyou're strong words well uh short-termyou're strong words well uh short-term trading crypto maybe in the long runtrading crypto maybe in the long runtrading crypto maybe in the long run there's intrinsic value but uh the youthere's intrinsic value but uh the youthere's intrinsic value but uh the you know it's many investors you know in a
know it's many investors you know in aknow it's many investors you know in a bubble going into the you know the thebubble going into the you know the thebubble going into the you know the the crash uh were really just purecrash uh were really just purecrash uh were really just pure speculators they didn't know what thingsspeculators they didn't know what thingsspeculators they didn't know what things were worth they just knew they werewere worth they just knew they werewere worth they just knew they were going up right that's speculation um andgoing up right that's speculation um andgoing up right that's speculation um and investing uh is you know doing yourinvesting uh is you know doing yourinvesting uh is you know doing your homework uh digging down understanding ahomework uh digging down understanding ahomework uh digging down understanding a business understanding the competitivebusiness understanding the competitivebusiness understanding the competitive dynamics of an industry understandingdynamics of an industry understandingdynamics of an industry understanding what Management's going to dowhat Management's going to dowhat Management's going to do understanding what price you're going tounderstanding what price you're going tounderstanding what price you're going to pay you know the value of anything Ipay you know the value of anything Ipay you know the value of anything I would say uh other than love let's saywould say uh other than love let's saywould say uh other than love let's say uh is the present value of the cash youuh is the present value of the cash youuh is the present value of the cash you can take out of it over its life nowcan take out of it over its life nowcan take out of it over its life now some people think about love that waysome people think about love that waysome people think about love that way but it's not it's not the right way tobut it's not it's not the right way tobut it's not it's not the right way to think about love but it's um yeah sothink about love but it's um yeah sothink about love but it's um yeah so investing is about basically building ainvesting is about basically building ainvesting is about basically building a a model of what this business is goinga model of what this business is goinga model of what this business is going to produce over its lifetime so how doto produce over its lifetime so how doto produce over its lifetime so how do you get to that this idea of called
you get to that this idea of calledyou get to that this idea of called value investing how do you get to thevalue investing how do you get to thevalue investing how do you get to the value of a thing even likevalue of a thing even likevalue of a thing even like philosophically value of anything reallyphilosophically value of anything reallyphilosophically value of anything really but we can just talk about the thingsbut we can just talk about the thingsbut we can just talk about the things that are on the stock market surethat are on the stock market surethat are on the stock market sure companies the value of a a security thecompanies the value of a a security thecompanies the value of a a security the value uh is the present value of thevalue uh is the present value of thevalue uh is the present value of the cash you can take out of it over itscash you can take out of it over itscash you can take out of it over its life so if you're think about a bond alife so if you're think about a bond alife so if you're think about a bond a bond you know pays a 5% coupon interestbond you know pays a 5% coupon interestbond you know pays a 5% coupon interest rate you get that let's say every yearrate you get that let's say every yearrate you get that let's say every year or twice a year split and half and it'sor twice a year split and half and it'sor twice a year split and half and it's very predictable and if it's a USvery predictable and if it's a USvery predictable and if it's a US Government Bond you know you're going toGovernment Bond you know you're going toGovernment Bond you know you're going to get it so that's a pretty easy thing toget it so that's a pretty easy thing toget it so that's a pretty easy thing to value a stock is an interested in avalue a stock is an interested in avalue a stock is an interested in a business it's like owning a piece of abusiness it's like owning a piece of abusiness it's like owning a piece of a company and a business a profitable onecompany and a business a profitable onecompany and a business a profitable one is like a bond and that it generatesis like a bond and that it generatesis like a bond and that it generates these coupons or these earnings or cashthese coupons or these earnings or cashthese coupons or these earnings or cash flow you know every year the differenceflow you know every year the differenceflow you know every year the difference with uh a stock and a bond is that uh
with uh a stock and a bond is that uhwith uh a stock and a bond is that uh the bond it's a contract you know whatthe bond it's a contract you know whatthe bond it's a contract you know what you're going to get as long as theyyou're going to get as long as theyyou're going to get as long as they don't go bankrupt in default with adon't go bankrupt in default with adon't go bankrupt in default with a stock you have to make predictions aboutstock you have to make predictions aboutstock you have to make predictions about the business you know how many widgetsthe business you know how many widgetsthe business you know how many widgets they going to sell this year how manythey going to sell this year how manythey going to sell this year how many going to sell next year uh what aregoing to sell next year uh what aregoing to sell next year uh what are their costs going to be how much of thetheir costs going to be how much of thetheir costs going to be how much of the money that they generate do they need tomoney that they generate do they need tomoney that they generate do they need to reinvest in the business to keep thereinvest in the business to keep thereinvest in the business to keep the business going um and uh that's morebusiness going um and uh that's morebusiness going um and uh that's more complicated um but you know what we docomplicated um but you know what we docomplicated um but you know what we do is we try to find businesses where withis we try to find businesses where withis we try to find businesses where with a very high degree of confidence we knowa very high degree of confidence we knowa very high degree of confidence we know what those cash flows are going to bewhat those cash flows are going to bewhat those cash flows are going to be for a very long time and there fewfor a very long time and there fewfor a very long time and there few businesses that you can have a reallybusinesses that you can have a reallybusinesses that you can have a really high degree of certainty about as ahigh degree of certainty about as ahigh degree of certainty about as a result you know many Investments areresult you know many Investments areresult you know many Investments are speculations because it's really veryspeculations because it's really veryspeculations because it's really very difficult to predict the future so wedifficult to predict the future so wedifficult to predict the future so we what we do for a living what I do for a
what we do for a living what I do for awhat we do for a living what I do for a living is find those rare companies thatliving is find those rare companies thatliving is find those rare companies that you can kind of predict what they'reyou can kind of predict what they'reyou can kind of predict what they're going to look like over a very longgoing to look like over a very longgoing to look like over a very long period of time so what are theperiod of time so what are theperiod of time so what are the factors that indicate that a company isfactors that indicate that a company isfactors that indicate that a company is something is going to be somethingsomething is going to be somethingsomething is going to be something that's going to make a lot of money it'sthat's going to make a lot of money it'sthat's going to make a lot of money it's going to have a lot of value and it'sgoing to have a lot of value and it'sgoing to have a lot of value and it's going to be reliable over a long periodgoing to be reliable over a long periodgoing to be reliable over a long period of time and what is your process ofof time and what is your process ofof time and what is your process of figuring out whether a company is orfiguring out whether a company is orfiguring out whether a company is or isn't that so every consumer has a viewisn't that so every consumer has a viewisn't that so every consumer has a view on different brands and differenton different brands and differenton different brands and different companies and you know what we look forcompanies and you know what we look forcompanies and you know what we look for are sort of these non-d disruptableare sort of these non-d disruptableare sort of these non-d disruptable businesses a business where you can kindbusinesses a business where you can kindbusinesses a business where you can kind of close your eyes stock market shutsof close your eyes stock market shutsof close your eyes stock market shuts for a decade and you know that 10 yearsfor a decade and you know that 10 yearsfor a decade and you know that 10 years from now it's going to be a morefrom now it's going to be a morefrom now it's going to be a more valuable more profitable company so wevaluable more profitable company so wevaluable more profitable company so we own a business called Universal Musicown a business called Universal Musicown a business called Universal Music Group uh it's in the business of helping
Group uh it's in the business of helpingGroup uh it's in the business of helping artists become Global artists uhartists become Global artists uhartists become Global artists uh recorded music business uh and it's inrecorded music business uh and it's inrecorded music business uh and it's in the business of you know owning rightsthe business of you know owning rightsthe business of you know owning rights uh to sort of the music publishinguh to sort of the music publishinguh to sort of the music publishing rights ofrights ofrights of songwriters and you know I think musicsongwriters and you know I think musicsongwriters and you know I think music is forever right music is is a manyis forever right music is is a manyis forever right music is is a many Thousand-Year old uh human part of theThousand-Year old uh human part of theThousand-Year old uh human part of the human experience and I think it will behuman experience and I think it will behuman experience and I think it will be you know thousands of years from now andyou know thousands of years from now andyou know thousands of years from now and so that's a pretty good backdrop toso that's a pretty good backdrop toso that's a pretty good backdrop to invest uh in a company and the companyinvest uh in a company and the companyinvest uh in a company and the company basically owns a third of the globalbasically owns a third of the globalbasically owns a third of the global recorded music that's you know the mostrecorded music that's you know the mostrecorded music that's you know the most dominant sort of market share in thedominant sort of market share in thedominant sort of market share in the business they're the best at taking anbusiness they're the best at taking anbusiness they're the best at taking an artist who's 18 years old has got aartist who's 18 years old has got aartist who's 18 years old has got a great voice and has started to get agreat voice and has started to get agreat voice and has started to get a presence on YouTube and uh Instagram andpresence on YouTube and uh Instagram andpresence on YouTube and uh Instagram and helping that artist become a superstarhelping that artist become a superstarhelping that artist become a superstar and that's a unique talent and and theand that's a unique talent and and theand that's a unique talent and and the result is the best artist in the worldresult is the best artist in the world
result is the best artist in the world want to come work for them but they alsowant to come work for them but they alsowant to come work for them but they also have this incredible library of you knowhave this incredible library of you knowhave this incredible library of you know the Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etcthe Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etcthe Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etc so and then if you think about um whatso and then if you think about um whatso and then if you think about um what music has become used to be aboutmusic has become used to be aboutmusic has become used to be about records and CDs and you know eight trackrecords and CDs and you know eight trackrecords and CDs and you know eight track tapes for those of whom it was about atapes for those of whom it was about atapes for those of whom it was about a new format and that's how they drivenew format and that's how they drivenew format and that's how they drive sales and it's become a business whichsales and it's become a business whichsales and it's become a business which is like the podcast business aboutis like the podcast business aboutis like the podcast business about streaming and you can streaming is a lotstreaming and you can streaming is a lotstreaming and you can streaming is a lot more predictable than what than sellingmore predictable than what than sellingmore predictable than what than selling records right you can sort of say okayrecords right you can sort of say okayrecords right you can sort of say okay how many people have smartphones howhow many people have smartphones howhow many people have smartphones how many people going to have smartphonesmany people going to have smartphonesmany people going to have smartphones next year there's a kind of globalnext year there's a kind of globalnext year there's a kind of global penetration over time of smartphones youpenetration over time of smartphones youpenetration over time of smartphones you pay call 10 11 bucks a month for apay call 10 11 bucks a month for apay call 10 11 bucks a month for a subscription or last for a family plansubscription or last for a family plansubscription or last for a family plan and you can kind of build a model whatand you can kind of build a model whatand you can kind of build a model what the world looks like and predict youthe world looks like and predict youthe world looks like and predict you know the growth of the streaming
know the growth of the streamingknow the growth of the streaming business you predict what kind of marketbusiness you predict what kind of marketbusiness you predict what kind of market share univers is going to have over timeshare univers is going to have over timeshare univers is going to have over time and you you can't get to a precise viewand you you can't get to a precise viewand you you can't get to a precise view of value you can get to an approximationof value you can get to an approximationof value you can get to an approximation and the key is to buy at a price thatand the key is to buy at a price thatand the key is to buy at a price that represents a big discount to thatrepresents a big discount to thatrepresents a big discount to that approximation and that gets back to Benapproximation and that gets back to Benapproximation and that gets back to Ben Graham Ben Graham was about what heGraham Ben Graham was about what heGraham Ben Graham was about what he called uh invented this concept ofcalled uh invented this concept ofcalled uh invented this concept of margin of safety right you want to buy amargin of safety right you want to buy amargin of safety right you want to buy a company at a price that if you're wrongcompany at a price that if you're wrongcompany at a price that if you're wrong about what you think it's worth and itabout what you think it's worth and itabout what you think it's worth and it turns out to be worth 30% less you paidturns out to be worth 30% less you paidturns out to be worth 30% less you paid a deep enough discount to your estimatea deep enough discount to your estimatea deep enough discount to your estimate that you're still okay it's aboutthat you're still okay it's aboutthat you're still okay it's about investing a big part of investing is notinvesting a big part of investing is notinvesting a big part of investing is not losing money if you can avoid losinglosing money if you can avoid losinglosing money if you can avoid losing money and then have a few great hits youmoney and then have a few great hits youmoney and then have a few great hits you can do very very well over time wellcan do very very well over time wellcan do very very well over time well music is interesting because uh yesmusic is interesting because uh yesmusic is interesting because uh yes music's been around for a very long timemusic's been around for a very long time
music's been around for a very long time but the way to make money from music hasbut the way to make money from music hasbut the way to make money from music has been evolving like you mentionedbeen evolving like you mentionedbeen evolving like you mentioned streaming there's a big transitionstreaming there's a big transitionstreaming there's a big transition initiated by I guess Napster thatinitiated by I guess Napster thatinitiated by I guess Napster that created Spotify of how you make money oncreated Spotify of how you make money oncreated Spotify of how you make money on music W with with apple and with all ofmusic W with with apple and with all ofmusic W with with apple and with all of this and the question is how well arethis and the question is how well arethis and the question is how well are companies like umg able to adjust tocompanies like umg able to adjust tocompanies like umg able to adjust to such Transformations one I could ask yousuch Transformations one I could ask yousuch Transformations one I could ask you about the future which is uh Artificialabout the future which is uh Artificialabout the future which is uh Artificial Intelligence being able to generateIntelligence being able to generateIntelligence being able to generate music for example there have been a lotmusic for example there have been a lotmusic for example there have been a lot of amazing advancements with so do youof amazing advancements with so do youof amazing advancements with so do you have to also think about that like whenhave to also think about that like whenhave to also think about that like when you close your eyes all the things youyou close your eyes all the things youyou close your eyes all the things you think about are you imagining thethink about are you imagining thethink about are you imagining the possible ways that the the future ispossible ways that the the future ispossible ways that the the future is completely different from the thecompletely different from the thecompletely different from the the present and how well this company willpresent and how well this company willpresent and how well this company will be able to like surf the wave of thatbe able to like surf the wave of thatbe able to like surf the wave of that sure and they've had to Surf a lot ofsure and they've had to Surf a lot ofsure and they've had to Surf a lot of waves and actually the music business
waves and actually the music businesswaves and actually the music business peaked the last time in like the latepeaked the last time in like the latepeaked the last time in like the late '90s or 2000 time frame and then really'90s or 2000 time frame and then really'90s or 2000 time frame and then really Innovation Napster digitization of MusicInnovation Napster digitization of MusicInnovation Napster digitization of Music almost killed the industry and Universalalmost killed the industry and Universalalmost killed the industry and Universal really LED an effort to save thereally LED an effort to save thereally LED an effort to save the industry and actually made an early dealindustry and actually made an early dealindustry and actually made an early deal with uh Spotify that enabled you knowwith uh Spotify that enabled you knowwith uh Spotify that enabled you know the uh the industry to really recoverthe uh the industry to really recoverthe uh the industry to really recover and so by virtue of their Marketand so by virtue of their Marketand so by virtue of their Market position and their credibility and theirposition and their credibility and theirposition and their credibility and their willingness to kind of adopt newwillingness to kind of adopt newwillingness to kind of adopt new technologies they've kept their positiontechnologies they've kept their positiontechnologies they've kept their position now they of course had this hugenow they of course had this hugenow they of course had this huge Advantage because I think the BeatlesAdvantage because I think the BeatlesAdvantage because I think the Beatles are forever I think You2 is forever Iare forever I think You2 is forever Iare forever I think You2 is forever I think Rolling Stones are forever um sothink Rolling Stones are forever um sothink Rolling Stones are forever um so they had a a nice base of of assets thatthey had a a nice base of of assets thatthey had a a nice base of of assets that were important and I think will foreverwere important and I think will foreverwere important and I think will forever be and forever is a long time but yoube and forever is a long time but yoube and forever is a long time but you knowknowknow the uh again there's enormous there arethe uh again there's enormous there arethe uh again there's enormous there are all kinds of risks in every businessall kinds of risks in every business
all kinds of risks in every business this is one that I think has a very highthis is one that I think has a very highthis is one that I think has a very high degree of persistence and I can'tdegree of persistence and I can'tdegree of persistence and I can't Envision a world where Beyond streamingEnvision a world where Beyond streamingEnvision a world where Beyond streaming in a sense now you may have a neuralin a sense now you may have a neuralin a sense now you may have a neural link chip in your head that instead of alink chip in your head that instead of alink chip in your head that instead of a phone but the the music's going to comephone but the the music's going to comephone but the the music's going to come in a digitized you know kind of formatin a digitized you know kind of formatin a digitized you know kind of format you're going to want to have an infiniteyou're going to want to have an infiniteyou're going to want to have an infinite library that you can walk around in yourlibrary that you can walk around in yourlibrary that you can walk around in your pocket or in your brain it's not goingpocket or in your brain it's not goingpocket or in your brain it's not going to matter that much if the form factorto matter that much if the form factorto matter that much if the form factor you know the device changes um it's notyou know the device changes um it's notyou know the device changes um it's not really that important whether it'sreally that important whether it'sreally that important whether it's Spotify or apple or Amazon uh that areSpotify or apple or Amazon uh that areSpotify or apple or Amazon uh that are the so-called uh dsps or the or thethe so-called uh dsps or the or thethe so-called uh dsps or the or the providers uh I think the value is reallyproviders uh I think the value is reallyproviders uh I think the value is really going to uh reside in the in the contentgoing to uh reside in the in the contentgoing to uh reside in the in the content owners and that's really the artists uhowners and that's really the artists uhowners and that's really the artists uh and the label and I actually think AI isand the label and I actually think AI isand the label and I actually think AI is not going to be the primary creator ofnot going to be the primary creator ofnot going to be the primary creator of music I think we're going to actuallymusic I think we're going to actually
music I think we're going to actually face the reality that it's not thatface the reality that it's not thatface the reality that it's not that music has been around for a th thousandsmusic has been around for a th thousandsmusic has been around for a th thousands of years but musicians and music hasof years but musicians and music hasof years but musicians and music has been around like we actually care tobeen around like we actually care tobeen around like we actually care to know who's the musician that created itknow who's the musician that created itknow who's the musician that created it just like we want to know that Who's thejust like we want to know that Who's thejust like we want to know that Who's the artist human artist that created a pieceartist human artist that created a pieceartist human artist that created a piece of art totally agree and I think if youof art totally agree and I think if youof art totally agree and I think if you think about it there's other lots ofthink about it there's other lots ofthink about it there's other lots of otherotherother Technologies uh and computers that haveTechnologies uh and computers that haveTechnologies uh and computers that have been used to generate music over timebeen used to generate music over timebeen used to generate music over time but no one wants to No One falls in lovebut no one wants to No One falls in lovebut no one wants to No One falls in love with a computer generated track right umwith a computer generated track right umwith a computer generated track right um and you know Taylor Swift you know youand you know Taylor Swift you know youand you know Taylor Swift you know you know incredible music but it's alsoknow incredible music but it's alsoknow incredible music but it's also about the artist and her story and herabout the artist and her story and herabout the artist and her story and her physical presence and you know the uhphysical presence and you know the uhphysical presence and you know the uh the live experience I don't think you'rethe live experience I don't think you'rethe live experience I don't think you're going to sit there uh and someone'sgoing to sit there uh and someone'sgoing to sit there uh and someone's going to put computer up on stagegoing to put computer up on stagegoing to put computer up on stage and then and it's going to play andand then and it's going to play and
and then and it's going to play and people are going to get excited aroundpeople are going to get excited aroundpeople are going to get excited around it so I think AI is really going to be ait so I think AI is really going to be ait so I think AI is really going to be a tool to make artists better artists umtool to make artists better artists umtool to make artists better artists um and and uh you know the I think uh likeand and uh you know the I think uh likeand and uh you know the I think uh like a synthesizer right uh really createda synthesizer right uh really createda synthesizer right uh really created the opportunity for you know one man tothe opportunity for you know one man tothe opportunity for you know one man to have an orchestra um maybe a bit of ahave an orchestra um maybe a bit of ahave an orchestra um maybe a bit of a threat to uh athreat to uh athreat to uh a percussionist um but maybe not maybe itpercussionist um but maybe not maybe itpercussionist um but maybe not maybe it drove even more demand for for for thedrove even more demand for for for thedrove even more demand for for for the live experience unless that computer haslive experience unless that computer haslive experience unless that computer has humanlike sence which I believe is ahumanlike sence which I believe is ahumanlike sence which I believe is a real possibility but then it's reallyreal possibility but then it's reallyreal possibility but then it's really from a business perspective no differentfrom a business perspective no differentfrom a business perspective no different than a human if it has an identitythan a human if it has an identitythan a human if it has an identity that's basically Fame and influence andthat's basically Fame and influence andthat's basically Fame and influence and there'll be a robot Taylor Swift and itthere'll be a robot Taylor Swift and itthere'll be a robot Taylor Swift and it doesn't copyrightable asset I woulddoesn't copyrightable asset I woulddoesn't copyrightable asset I would think MH right yeah and then there'll bethink MH right yeah and then there'll bethink MH right yeah and then there'll be not sure that's a world I'm excitednot sure that's a world I'm excitednot sure that's a world I'm excited that's a different discussion um thethat's a different discussion um thethat's a different discussion um the world is not going to ask yourworld is not going to ask your
world is not going to ask your permission to become what it's ispermission to become what it's ispermission to become what it's is becoming so uh but you can still makebecoming so uh but you can still makebecoming so uh but you can still make money on it uh presumably there'd be amoney on it uh presumably there'd be amoney on it uh presumably there'd be a capital system and there would be somecapital system and there would be somecapital system and there would be some laws under which AI which I believe AIlaws under which AI which I believe AIlaws under which AI which I believe AI systems will have rights that are akinsystems will have rights that are akinsystems will have rights that are akin to Human Rights and we're going to haveto Human Rights and we're going to haveto Human Rights and we're going to have to contend with what that means wellto contend with what that means wellto contend with what that means well there's sort of name and likeness rightsthere's sort of name and likeness rightsthere's sort of name and likeness rights yes right that have to be protected nowyes right that have to be protected nowyes right that have to be protected now can a name be attributed to a a Teslacan a name be attributed to a a Teslacan a name be attributed to a a Tesla robot I don't know I think so I thinkrobot I don't know I think so I thinkrobot I don't know I think so I think it's quite obvious to okay those areit's quite obvious to okay those areit's quite obvious to okay those are more more potential artists for us tomore more potential artists for us tomore more potential artists for us to represent at universe exactly exactlyrepresent at universe exactly exactlyrepresent at universe exactly exactly all right that's sort of one exampleall right that's sort of one exampleall right that's sort of one example another example could be just you knowanother example could be just you knowanother example could be just you know the restaurant industry right if you canthe restaurant industry right if you canthe restaurant industry right if you can you look at businesses like a McDonald'syou look at businesses like a McDonald'syou look at businesses like a McDonald's right it's a whatever the company's likeright it's a whatever the company's likeright it's a whatever the company's like aaa 1950 vintage business and here we are1950 vintage business and here we are1950 vintage business and here we are it's you know 75 years later and uh you
it's you know 75 years later and uh youit's you know 75 years later and uh you can kind of predict what it's going tocan kind of predict what it's going tocan kind of predict what it's going to look like over time and the menu islook like over time and the menu islook like over time and the menu is going to you adjust over time togoing to you adjust over time togoing to you adjust over time to Consumer tastes and but I think theConsumer tastes and but I think theConsumer tastes and but I think the hamburger and fries is probablyhamburger and fries is probablyhamburger and fries is probably Forever The Beetles The Rolling StonesForever The Beetles The Rolling StonesForever The Beetles The Rolling Stones the hamburger and fries are forever Ithe hamburger and fries are forever Ithe hamburger and fries are forever I was uh eating at Chipotle last night aswas uh eating at Chipotle last night aswas uh eating at Chipotle last night as I Was preparing know EXC thank you thankI Was preparing know EXC thank you thankI Was preparing know EXC thank you thank you and uh yeah it is it is one of myyou and uh yeah it is it is one of myyou and uh yeah it is it is one of my favorite places to eat you said it is afavorite places to eat you said it is afavorite places to eat you said it is a place that you eat you obviously alsoplace that you eat you obviously alsoplace that you eat you obviously also invest in it uh what do you get atinvest in it uh what do you get atinvest in it uh what do you get at Chipotle I tend to get a double chickenChipotle I tend to get a double chickenChipotle I tend to get a double chicken bowl or burrito um I I like the burritobowl or burrito um I I like the burritobowl or burrito um I I like the burrito but I I generally try to order the bowlbut I I generally try to order the bowlbut I I generally try to order the bowl yeah cut the carb for heal reasons allyeah cut the carb for heal reasons allyeah cut the carb for heal reasons all right and uh you know double chickenright and uh you know double chickenright and uh you know double chicken quac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'mquac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'mquac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'm more of a steak guy just just puttingmore of a steak guy just just puttingmore of a steak guy just just putting that on the recthat on the recthat on the rec record uh what's the actual process you
record uh what's the actual process yourecord uh what's the actual process you go through like literallygo through like literallygo through like literally like the process of figuring out whatlike the process of figuring out whatlike the process of figuring out what the value of a company is like how dothe value of a company is like how dothe value of a company is like how do you do the research is it readingyou do the research is it readingyou do the research is it reading documents is it talking to people is howdocuments is it talking to people is howdocuments is it talking to people is how do you do it so all the B so Chipotledo you do it so all the B so Chipotledo you do it so all the B so Chipotle What attracted us initially is a stockWhat attracted us initially is a stockWhat attracted us initially is a stock price dropped by about 50% uh greatprice dropped by about 50% uh greatprice dropped by about 50% uh great company great concept um cons you knowcompany great concept um cons you knowcompany great concept um cons you know athletes love it consumers love itathletes love it consumers love itathletes love it consumers love it healthy sustainable uh fresh food madehealthy sustainable uh fresh food madehealthy sustainable uh fresh food made in front of your eyes and uh you knowin front of your eyes and uh you knowin front of your eyes and uh you know great Steve ell's the founder did angreat Steve ell's the founder did angreat Steve ell's the founder did an amazing job but ultimately the company'samazing job but ultimately the company'samazing job but ultimately the company's lacking some of the systems and had alacking some of the systems and had alacking some of the systems and had a food safety issue consumers got sickfood safety issue consumers got sickfood safety issue consumers got sick almost killed thealmost killed thealmost killed the rent uh but the reality of the fast foodrent uh but the reality of the fast foodrent uh but the reality of the fast food quick service industry is almost everyquick service industry is almost everyquick service industry is almost every fast food company has had a food safetyfast food company has had a food safetyfast food company has had a food safety issue over time and the vast majorityissue over time and the vast majorityissue over time and the vast majority have survived uh and we said look such ahave survived uh and we said look such a
have survived uh and we said look such a great concept but they they you knowgreat concept but they they you knowgreat concept but they they you know their approach was not was far fromtheir approach was not was far fromtheir approach was not was far from ideal but we start with usually readingideal but we start with usually readingideal but we start with usually reading the SEC violing so companies file a 10Kthe SEC violing so companies file a 10Kthe SEC violing so companies file a 10K or an annual report they file theseor an annual report they file theseor an annual report they file these quarterly reports called 10 Q's theyquarterly reports called 10 Q's theyquarterly reports called 10 Q's they have a proxy statement which describeshave a proxy statement which describeshave a proxy statement which describes kind of the governance the boardkind of the governance the boardkind of the governance the board structure um conference call transcriptsstructure um conference call transcriptsstructure um conference call transcripts are publicly available it's kind of veryare publicly available it's kind of veryare publicly available it's kind of very helpful to go back five years and kindhelpful to go back five years and kindhelpful to go back five years and kind of learn the story you know here's howof learn the story you know here's howof learn the story you know here's how management describes their businessmanagement describes their businessmanagement describes their business here's what they say they're going to dohere's what they say they're going to dohere's what they say they're going to do then you can follow along to see whatthen you can follow along to see whatthen you can follow along to see what they do uh it's like a historical recordthey do uh it's like a historical recordthey do uh it's like a historical record of you know of how competent and uhof you know of how competent and uhof you know of how competent and uh truthful they are you it's a very usefultruthful they are you it's a very usefultruthful they are you it's a very useful device and then of course looking atdevice and then of course looking atdevice and then of course looking at competitors uh and thinking about youcompetitors uh and thinking about youcompetitors uh and thinking about you know who could what could dislodge thisknow who could what could dislodge thisknow who could what could dislodge this company um uh you know and then we'll
company um uh you know and then we'llcompany um uh you know and then we'll talk to if it's an industry we don'ttalk to if it's an industry we don'ttalk to if it's an industry we don't know well we know the restaurantknow well we know the restaurantknow well we know the restaurant industry really well music industry youindustry really well music industry youindustry really well music industry you know we'll talk to people in theknow we'll talk to people in theknow we'll talk to people in the industry we'll try to understand youindustry we'll try to understand youindustry we'll try to understand you know the difference between publishingknow the difference between publishingknow the difference between publishing and recorded music we'll look at theand recorded music we'll look at theand recorded music we'll look at the competitors um we'll talk to we'll readcompetitors um we'll talk to we'll readcompetitors um we'll talk to we'll read books you I read a book about the musicbooks you I read a book about the musicbooks you I read a book about the music industry or a couple books about theindustry or a couple books about theindustry or a couple books about the industry um so it's it's a bit like aindustry um so it's it's a bit like aindustry um so it's it's a bit like a big research project uh and you therebig research project uh and you therebig research project uh and you there these so-called expert networks now andthese so-called expert networks now andthese so-called expert networks now and you can get pretty much anyone on theyou can get pretty much anyone on theyou can get pretty much anyone on the phone uh and they'll talk to you aboutphone uh and they'll talk to you aboutphone uh and they'll talk to you about an aspect of the industry that you don'tan aspect of the industry that you don'tan aspect of the industry that you don't understand want to learn more about uhunderstand want to learn more about uhunderstand want to learn more about uh try to get a sense you know publictry to get a sense you know publictry to get a sense you know public filings of companies generally give youfilings of companies generally give youfilings of companies generally give you a lot of information but not everythinga lot of information but not everythinga lot of information but not everything you want to know and you can learn moreyou want to know and you can learn moreyou want to know and you can learn more by talking to experts about some of the
by talking to experts about some of theby talking to experts about some of the industry Dynamics the personalities youindustry Dynamics the personalities youindustry Dynamics the personalities you want to get a sense of management uh Iwant to get a sense of management uh Iwant to get a sense of management uh I like watching you know podcasts if a CEOlike watching you know podcasts if a CEOlike watching you know podcasts if a CEO were to do a podcast or a YouTubewere to do a podcast or a YouTubewere to do a podcast or a YouTube interview you get a sense of the peopleinterview you get a sense of the peopleinterview you get a sense of the people so in the case of Chipotle for exampleso in the case of Chipotle for exampleso in the case of Chipotle for example by the way I could talk about Chipotleby the way I could talk about Chipotleby the way I could talk about Chipotle all day I just love it I love it I wishall day I just love it I love it I wishall day I just love it I love it I wish there was athere was athere was a sponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEOsponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEOsponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEO don't make promises you can't keep Billdon't make promises you can't keep Billdon't make promises you can't keep Bill I'm not making can't Brian Nichol is aI'm not making can't Brian Nichol is aI'm not making can't Brian Nichol is a fantastic CEO he's not going to spendfantastic CEO he's not going to spendfantastic CEO he's not going to spend one doar that he doesn't think is theone doar that he doesn't think is theone doar that he doesn't think is the company's best interest all right all Icompany's best interest all right all Icompany's best interest all right all I want is free Chipotle come onwant is free Chipotle come onwant is free Chipotle come on now uh what was I saying oh and so younow uh what was I saying oh and so younow uh what was I saying oh and so you look at a company like Chipotle and thenlook at a company like Chipotle and thenlook at a company like Chipotle and then you see there's a difficult moment inyou see there's a difficult moment inyou see there's a difficult moment in its history like you said that uh thereits history like you said that uh thereits history like you said that uh there was a food safety issue and then you saywas a food safety issue and then you saywas a food safety issue and then you say okay well I see a path where we can fix
okay well I see a path where we can fixokay well I see a path where we can fix this and therefore even though the pricethis and therefore even though the pricethis and therefore even though the price is low we can get it to where the priceis low we can get it to where the priceis low we can get it to where the price goes up to its value MH so the kind ofgoes up to its value MH so the kind ofgoes up to its value MH so the kind of business we're looking for is sort ofbusiness we're looking for is sort ofbusiness we're looking for is sort of the kind of business everyone should bethe kind of business everyone should bethe kind of business everyone should be looking for right a great business it'slooking for right a great business it'slooking for right a great business it's got a long-term trajectory of growth outgot a long-term trajectory of growth outgot a long-term trajectory of growth out into the for you know even beyond theinto the for you know even beyond theinto the for you know even beyond the fores seable distance right those arefores seable distance right those arefores seable distance right those are the kind of businesses you want to ownthe kind of businesses you want to ownthe kind of businesses you want to own you want businesses that generate a lotyou want businesses that generate a lotyou want businesses that generate a lot of cash you want businesses you canof cash you want businesses you canof cash you want businesses you can easily understand you want businesseseasily understand you want businesseseasily understand you want businesses with these sort of huge barriers towith these sort of huge barriers towith these sort of huge barriers to entry where it's difficult for others toentry where it's difficult for others toentry where it's difficult for others to compete you want companies that don'tcompete you want companies that don'tcompete you want companies that don't have to constantly raise Capital um andhave to constantly raise Capital um andhave to constantly raise Capital um and these are some of the great businessesthese are some of the great businessesthese are some of the great businesses of the world but people have figured outof the world but people have figured outof the world but people have figured out that those are the great businesses sothat those are the great businesses sothat those are the great businesses so the problem is those companies tend to
the problem is those companies tend tothe problem is those companies tend to have very high stock prices and thehave very high stock prices and thehave very high stock prices and the value is generally built into the pricevalue is generally built into the pricevalue is generally built into the price you have to pay for the business so weyou have to pay for the business so weyou have to pay for the business so we we can't earn the kind of returns wewe can't earn the kind of returns wewe can't earn the kind of returns we want to earn for investors by paying awant to earn for investors by paying awant to earn for investors by paying a really high price price matters a lotreally high price price matters a lotreally high price price matters a lot you can buy the best business in theyou can buy the best business in theyou can buy the best business in the world and if you overpay you're notworld and if you overpay you're notworld and if you overpay you're not going to earn particularly attractivegoing to earn particularly attractivegoing to earn particularly attractive returns so we get involved in casesreturns so we get involved in casesreturns so we get involved in cases where a great business has kind of madewhere a great business has kind of madewhere a great business has kind of made a big mistake or or you a company that'sa big mistake or or you a company that'sa big mistake or or you a company that's kind of lost its way but it'skind of lost its way but it'skind of lost its way but it's recoverable and that's we buy fromrecoverable and that's we buy fromrecoverable and that's we buy from shareholders who are disappointed who'veshareholders who are disappointed who'veshareholders who are disappointed who've lost confidence selling at a low pricelost confidence selling at a low pricelost confidence selling at a low price relative to what it's worth if fixed andrelative to what it's worth if fixed andrelative to what it's worth if fixed and then we try to be helpful in fixing thethen we try to be helpful in fixing thethen we try to be helpful in fixing the company you said that uh barriers tocompany you said that uh barriers tocompany you said that uh barriers to entry you said a lot of reallyentry you said a lot of reallyentry you said a lot of really interesting qualities of companies veryinteresting qualities of companies veryinteresting qualities of companies very quickly in a sequence of statements that
quickly in a sequence of statements thatquickly in a sequence of statements that took like less than 10 seconds to saytook like less than 10 seconds to saytook like less than 10 seconds to say but some of them were fascina all ofbut some of them were fascina all ofbut some of them were fascina all of them were fascinating so you saidthem were fascinating so you saidthem were fascinating so you said barriers to entry how do you know ifbarriers to entry how do you know ifbarriers to entry how do you know if there's a type of moatthere's a type of moatthere's a type of moat protecting of the the competitors fromprotecting of the the competitors fromprotecting of the the competitors from stepping up to the plate I mean the moststepping up to the plate I mean the moststepping up to the plate I mean the most difficult analysis to do as an investordifficult analysis to do as an investordifficult analysis to do as an investor is that is kind of figuring out how wideis that is kind of figuring out how wideis that is kind of figuring out how wide is the moat how you know how much atis the moat how you know how much atis the moat how you know how much at risk is the business to disruption andrisk is the business to disruption andrisk is the business to disruption and we're in I would say a period thewe're in I would say a period thewe're in I would say a period the greatest period of disrupt ability ingreatest period of disrupt ability ingreatest period of disrupt ability in history righthistory righthistory right technology you know a couple oftechnology you know a couple oftechnology you know a couple of 19-year-olds can you know leave whatever19-year-olds can you know leave whatever19-year-olds can you know leave whatever University or maybe they didn't even goUniversity or maybe they didn't even goUniversity or maybe they didn't even go in the first placein the first placein the first place uh they can raise you know millions ofuh they can raise you know millions ofuh they can raise you know millions of dollars uh they can get access todollars uh they can get access todollars uh they can get access to infinite uh bandwidth storage uh theyinfinite uh bandwidth storage uh theyinfinite uh bandwidth storage uh they can contract with uh engineers incan contract with uh engineers incan contract with uh engineers in lowcost markets around the world theylowcost markets around the world they
lowcost markets around the world they can build a virtual company and they cancan build a virtual company and they cancan build a virtual company and they can disrupt businesses that seem superdisrupt businesses that seem superdisrupt businesses that seem super established over time and then on top ofestablished over time and then on top ofestablished over time and then on top of that you have major companies withthat you have major companies withthat you have major companies with multi-trillion dollar market capsmulti-trillion dollar market capsmulti-trillion dollar market caps working to find profits wherever theyworking to find profits wherever theyworking to find profits wherever they can and so that's a dangerous World in acan and so that's a dangerous World in acan and so that's a dangerous World in a way to be an investor and so you want toway to be an investor and so you want toway to be an investor and so you want to you have to find businesses that it'syou have to find businesses that it'syou have to find businesses that it's hard to foresee a world in which theyhard to foresee a world in which theyhard to foresee a world in which they get disrupted and the beauty of theget disrupted and the beauty of theget disrupted and the beauty of the restaurant business and we've actuallyrestaurant business and we've actuallyrestaurant business and we've actually our best track record is in restaurantsour best track record is in restaurantsour best track record is in restaurants we've never lost money uh we've onlywe've never lost money uh we've onlywe've never lost money uh we've only made a fortune interestingly investingmade a fortune interestingly investingmade a fortune interestingly investing restaurants a big part of it it's arestaurants a big part of it it's arestaurants a big part of it it's a really simple business and if you youreally simple business and if you youreally simple business and if you you know get your pootle right and you're atknow get your pootle right and you're atknow get your pootle right and you're at a 100 stores you know it's not so harda 100 stores you know it's not so harda 100 stores you know it's not so hard to Envision getting to 200 stores andto Envision getting to 200 stores andto Envision getting to 200 stores and then getting to 500 stores right and thethen getting to 500 stores right and thethen getting to 500 stores right and the key is maintaining the brand image
key is maintaining the brand imagekey is maintaining the brand image growing intelligently having the rightgrowing intelligently having the rightgrowing intelligently having the right systems uh you know now when you go fromsystems uh you know now when you go fromsystems uh you know now when you go from 100 stores to 3500 stores you have to100 stores to 3500 stores you have to100 stores to 3500 stores you have to know what you're doing there's a lot ofknow what you're doing there's a lot ofknow what you're doing there's a lot of complexity right you know if you thinkcomplexity right you know if you thinkcomplexity right you know if you think about your local restaurant uh you knowabout your local restaurant uh you knowabout your local restaurant uh you know the family's working in the businessthe family's working in the businessthe family's working in the business they're they're watching the cashthey're they're watching the cashthey're they're watching the cash register and you can probably openregister and you can probably openregister and you can probably open another restaurant you know across townanother restaurant you know across townanother restaurant you know across town but there are very few restaurantbut there are very few restaurantbut there are very few restaurant operators that own more than a fewoperators that own more than a fewoperators that own more than a few restaurants and operate themrestaurants and operate themrestaurants and operate them successfully and the and the quicksuccessfully and the and the quicksuccessfully and the and the quick service business is about systemsservice business is about systemsservice business is about systems and building a model that uh a strangerand building a model that uh a strangerand building a model that uh a stranger who doesn't know the restaurant industrywho doesn't know the restaurant industrywho doesn't know the restaurant industry can come in and enter the business andcan come in and enter the business andcan come in and enter the business and build a successful uh successfulbuild a successful uh successfulbuild a successful uh successful franchise now Chipotle is not afranchise now Chipotle is not afranchise now Chipotle is not a franchise company they actually own allfranchise company they actually own allfranchise company they actually own all their own stores but many of the mosttheir own stores but many of the most
their own stores but many of the most successful restaurant companies orsuccessful restaurant companies orsuccessful restaurant companies or franchise models like a Burger King afranchise models like a Burger King afranchise models like a Burger King a McDonald's Tim Horton you know all theseMcDonald's Tim Horton you know all theseMcDonald's Tim Horton you know all these various Brands Popeyes and there it'svarious Brands Popeyes and there it'svarious Brands Popeyes and there it's about systems but the same systems applyabout systems but the same systems applyabout systems but the same systems apply whether you own all the stores and it'swhether you own all the stores and it'swhether you own all the stores and it's run by a big Corporation or whether therun by a big Corporation or whether therun by a big Corporation or whether the owners of the restaurants are are sortowners of the restaurants are are sortowners of the restaurants are are sort of franchisees you know localof franchisees you know localof franchisees you know local entrepreneurs so if the restaurant hasentrepreneurs so if the restaurant hasentrepreneurs so if the restaurant has scaled to a certain number that meansscaled to a certain number that meansscaled to a certain number that means they've figured out some kind of systemthey've figured out some kind of systemthey've figured out some kind of system that works it's very difficult tothat works it's very difficult tothat works it's very difficult to develop that kind of system so that's adevelop that kind of system so that's adevelop that kind of system so that's a moe a moe is you get to a certain scalemoe a moe is you get to a certain scalemoe a moe is you get to a certain scale and you do it successfully and the brandand you do it successfully and the brandand you do it successfully and the brand is now in the in the understood by theis now in the in the understood by theis now in the in the understood by the consumer and what's interesting aboutconsumer and what's interesting aboutconsumer and what's interesting about Chipotle is what they've achieved isChipotle is what they've achieved isChipotle is what they've achieved is difficult right they're not buyingdifficult right they're not buyingdifficult right they're not buying frozen hamburgers getting shipped infrozen hamburgers getting shipped infrozen hamburgers getting shipped in they're buying fresh you know
they're buying fresh you knowthey're buying fresh you know sustainably sourced ingredients thesustainably sourced ingredients thesustainably sourced ingredients the preparing food in the store that was thepreparing food in the store that was thepreparing food in the store that was the first right the quality of the productfirst right the quality of the productfirst right the quality of the product that chipotle is incredible it's thethat chipotle is incredible it's thethat chipotle is incredible it's the highest quality food you can get for youhighest quality food you can get for youhighest quality food you can get for you can get a serious dinner for under 20can get a serious dinner for under 20can get a serious dinner for under 20 bucks uh and eat really Health you knowbucks uh and eat really Health you knowbucks uh and eat really Health you know healthfully and very high qualityhealthfully and very high qualityhealthfully and very high quality ingredients and that's just notingredients and that's just notingredients and that's just not available anywhere else and it's veryavailable anywhere else and it's veryavailable anywhere else and it's very hard to replicate and to build thosehard to replicate and to build thosehard to replicate and to build those relationships with you know Farmersrelationships with you know Farmersrelationships with you know Farmers around the country it's a lot easier toaround the country it's a lot easier toaround the country it's a lot easier to make a deal with one of the big you knowmake a deal with one of the big you knowmake a deal with one of the big you know massive food food producers and buy yourmassive food food producers and buy yourmassive food food producers and buy your pork from them uh than to buy from apork from them uh than to buy from apork from them uh than to buy from a whole bunch of farmers around thewhole bunch of farmers around thewhole bunch of farmers around the country and so it's that is a big moatcountry and so it's that is a big moatcountry and so it's that is a big moat for Chipotle very difficult to replicatefor Chipotle very difficult to replicatefor Chipotle very difficult to replicate and by the way another company I thinkand by the way another company I thinkand by the way another company I think you have a stake is is McDonald's no weyou have a stake is is McDonald's no weyou have a stake is is McDonald's no we own a company called restaurant Brands
own a company called restaurant Brandsown a company called restaurant Brands restaurant Brands owns a number of Quickrestaurant Brands owns a number of Quickrestaurant Brands owns a number of Quick service companies one of which is Burgerservice companies one of which is Burgerservice companies one of which is Burger King Burger King okay well um it's beenKing Burger King okay well um it's beenKing Burger King okay well um it's been a meme for a while but I've Burger Kinga meme for a while but I've Burger Kinga meme for a while but I've Burger King is great too Wendy's whatever butis great too Wendy's whatever butis great too Wendy's whatever but usually go McDonald's I'll just eatusually go McDonald's I'll just eatusually go McDonald's I'll just eat burger patties I don't know if you knewburger patties I don't know if you knewburger patties I don't know if you knew you could do this but a burger patty atyou could do this but a burger patty atyou could do this but a burger patty at Burger King can do this McDonald's it'sBurger King can do this McDonald's it'sBurger King can do this McDonald's it's actually way cheaper they'll just sellactually way cheaper they'll just sellactually way cheaper they'll just sell you the Pat the Patty and it's cheapyou the Pat the Patty and it's cheapyou the Pat the Patty and it's cheap it's like $150 or $2 for per Patty andit's like $150 or $2 for per Patty andit's like $150 or $2 for per Patty and it's about 250 calories and it's justit's about 250 calories and it's justit's about 250 calories and it's just meat and despite like the criticism ofmeat and despite like the criticism ofmeat and despite like the criticism of memes out there that's pretty healthymemes out there that's pretty healthymemes out there that's pretty healthy stuff it's healthy stuff and so when Istuff it's healthy stuff and so when Istuff it's healthy stuff and so when I do when I go my the healthiest I feel isdo when I go my the healthiest I feel isdo when I go my the healthiest I feel is when I do carnivore it doesn't soundwhen I do carnivore it doesn't soundwhen I do carnivore it doesn't sound healthy but if I eat only meat I feelhealthy but if I eat only meat I feelhealthy but if I eat only meat I feel really good I lose weight I have allreally good I lose weight I have allreally good I lose weight I have all this energy it's crazy and the when I'mthis energy it's crazy and the when I'm
this energy it's crazy and the when I'm traveling the easiest way to get me istraveling the easiest way to get me istraveling the easiest way to get me is that did you go to McDonald's you orderthat did you go to McDonald's you orderthat did you go to McDonald's you order six patties exactly so there's this sadsix patties exactly so there's this sadsix patties exactly so there's this sad meme of me just sitting alone in a carmeme of me just sitting alone in a carmeme of me just sitting alone in a car when I'm traveling just eating beefwhen I'm traveling just eating beefwhen I'm traveling just eating beef patties and McDonald but I love it andpatties and McDonald but I love it andpatties and McDonald but I love it and you got to do what what you love whatyou got to do what what you love whatyou got to do what what you love what makes you happy and that's what makes memakes you happy and that's what makes memakes you happy and that's what makes me happy we should maybe we'll have Burgerhappy we should maybe we'll have Burgerhappy we should maybe we'll have Burger King feature in what about flame worldKing feature in what about flame worldKing feature in what about flame world what what's with these fried burgers wewhat what's with these fried burgers wewhat what's with these fried burgers we got to get you to Burger King you knowgot to get you to Burger King you knowgot to get you to Burger King you know grilled burgers wait is this like fastgrilled burgers wait is this like fastgrilled burgers wait is this like fast food trash I didn't know I don't knowfood trash I didn't know I don't knowfood trash I didn't know I don't know the details of how they're made I'm notthe details of how they're made I'm notthe details of how they're made I'm not not I don't have Allegiance I think wenot I don't have Allegiance I think wenot I don't have Allegiance I think we got a chance to switch you to Burgergot a chance to switch you to Burgergot a chance to switch you to Burger King great we'll see I I'm I'm making soKing great we'll see I I'm I'm making soKing great we'll see I I'm I'm making so many deals today it's wonderful okay youmany deals today it's wonderful okay youmany deals today it's wonderful okay you were talking about most and this kind ofwere talking about most and this kind ofwere talking about most and this kind of remind me of um alphabet the parentremind me of um alphabet the parent
remind me of um alphabet the parent company sure we're made where's it's acompany sure we're made where's it's acompany sure we're made where's it's a big position for us so it's interestingbig position for us so it's interestingbig position for us so it's interesting that you're uh think that maybe alphabetthat you're uh think that maybe alphabetthat you're uh think that maybe alphabet fits some of thesefits some of thesefits some of these characteristics It's tricky to know withcharacteristics It's tricky to know withcharacteristics It's tricky to know with everything that's happeningeverything that's happeningeverything that's happening in in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soonin in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soonin in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soon it's interesting that you think thatit's interesting that you think thatit's interesting that you think that there's a mo and it's also interestingthere's a mo and it's also interestingthere's a mo and it's also interesting to analyze that because a consumer asto analyze that because a consumer asto analyze that because a consumer as just a fan of Technology why is Googlejust a fan of Technology why is Googlejust a fan of Technology why is Google still around like they've been it's notstill around like they've been it's notstill around like they've been it's not just a search engine it's doing it alljust a search engine it's doing it alljust a search engine it's doing it all the basics of the business of searchthe basics of the business of searchthe basics of the business of search really well but they're doing all thesereally well but they're doing all thesereally well but they're doing all these other stuff so what's your analysis ofother stuff so what's your analysis ofother stuff so what's your analysis of alphabet why are you still positivealphabet why are you still positivealphabet why are you still positive about it sure so it's a business we'veabout it sure so it's a business we'veabout it sure so it's a business we've admired as a firm for you know whateveradmired as a firm for you know whateveradmired as a firm for you know whatever 15 years um but rarely got to a price15 years um but rarely got to a price15 years um but rarely got to a price that we felt we could own it becausethat we felt we could own it becausethat we felt we could own it because again the expectations were so high andagain the expectations were so high and
again the expectations were so high and price really matters and really the sortprice really matters and really the sortprice really matters and really the sort of AI scare I would call it you knowof AI scare I would call it you knowof AI scare I would call it you know Microsoft comes out with chat GPT uhMicrosoft comes out with chat GPT uhMicrosoft comes out with chat GPT uh they do an amazing demonstration peoplethey do an amazing demonstration peoplethey do an amazing demonstration people like this most incredible product andlike this most incredible product andlike this most incredible product and Google which had been working on AI evenGoogle which had been working on AI evenGoogle which had been working on AI even earlier obviously the Microsoftearlier obviously the Microsoftearlier obviously the Microsoft Microsoft was behind an AI it was reallyMicrosoft was behind an AI it was reallyMicrosoft was behind an AI it was really their chat GPT deal that gave them atheir chat GPT deal that gave them atheir chat GPT deal that gave them a kind of a market presence um and thenkind of a market presence um and thenkind of a market presence um and then Google does this fairly disastrous uhGoogle does this fairly disastrous uhGoogle does this fairly disastrous uh demonstration of Bard and the world saysdemonstration of Bard and the world saysdemonstration of Bard and the world says oh my God Google's fallen behind an aioh my God Google's fallen behind an aioh my God Google's fallen behind an ai ai is the future stock gets crushedai is the future stock gets crushedai is the future stock gets crushed Google gets to a price around 15 timesGoogle gets to a price around 15 timesGoogle gets to a price around 15 times earnings uh which for a business of thisearnings uh which for a business of thisearnings uh which for a business of this quality is an extremely extremely lowquality is an extremely extremely lowquality is an extremely extremely low price and our view on Google one way toprice and our view on Google one way toprice and our view on Google one way to think about it when a business becomes athink about it when a business becomes athink about it when a business becomes a verb that's usually a pretty good signverb that's usually a pretty good signverb that's usually a pretty good sign about the mode around the business soabout the mode around the business soabout the mode around the business so you know you open your computer and you
you know you open your computer and youyou know you open your computer and you open your search and very highopen your search and very highopen your search and very high percentage of the world starts with apercentage of the world starts with apercentage of the world starts with a Google you know page in a onGoogle you know page in a onGoogle you know page in a on line uh you type in your your search youline uh you type in your your search youline uh you type in your your search you know the Google advertising searchknow the Google advertising searchknow the Google advertising search YouTube franchise is one of the mostYouTube franchise is one of the mostYouTube franchise is one of the most dominant uh franchises in the world verydominant uh franchises in the world verydominant uh franchises in the world very difficult to disrupt uh extremelydifficult to disrupt uh extremelydifficult to disrupt uh extremely profitable uh the world is moving fromprofitable uh the world is moving fromprofitable uh the world is moving from offline advertising to onlineoffline advertising to onlineoffline advertising to online advertising and that Trend I thinkadvertising and that Trend I thinkadvertising and that Trend I think continues why because you can actuallycontinues why because you can actuallycontinues why because you can actually see what your ads work you know theysee what your ads work you know theysee what your ads work you know they used to say about advertising you knowused to say about advertising you knowused to say about advertising you know uh you spend a fortune and you justuh you spend a fortune and you justuh you spend a fortune and you just don't know which 50% of it works but youdon't know which 50% of it works but youdon't know which 50% of it works but you just sort of spend the money because youjust sort of spend the money because youjust sort of spend the money because you know ultimately that's going to bring inknow ultimately that's going to bring inknow ultimately that's going to bring in the customer and now with onlinethe customer and now with onlinethe customer and now with online advertising you can see withadvertising you can see withadvertising you can see with granularity which dollars I'm spendinggranularity which dollars I'm spendinggranularity which dollars I'm spending you know when people click on the searchyou know when people click on the search
you know when people click on the search term and end up buying something and Iterm and end up buying something and Iterm and end up buying something and I pay you know the it's a very high returnpay you know the it's a very high returnpay you know the it's a very high return on investment for The Advertiser andon investment for The Advertiser andon investment for The Advertiser and they really dominate that business nowthey really dominate that business nowthey really dominate that business now ai of course is a risk if all of aai of course is a risk if all of aai of course is a risk if all of a sudden people start searching or askingsudden people start searching or askingsudden people start searching or asking questions of chat GPT and don't startquestions of chat GPT and don't startquestions of chat GPT and don't start with the Google search bar that's a riskwith the Google search bar that's a riskwith the Google search bar that's a risk to the company and so our view based onto the company and so our view based onto the company and so our view based on work we had done and talked to Industrywork we had done and talked to Industrywork we had done and talked to Industry experts is that Google if anything had aexperts is that Google if anything had aexperts is that Google if anything had a a uh by virtue of the the investmenta uh by virtue of the the investmenta uh by virtue of the the investment they've made the time the energy theythey've made the time the energy theythey've made the time the energy they people put into it we felt their AIpeople put into it we felt their AIpeople put into it we felt their AI capabilities were if anythingcapabilities were if anythingcapabilities were if anything potentially greater than uh Microsoftpotentially greater than uh Microsoftpotentially greater than uh Microsoft Chat GPT and that the market hadChat GPT and that the market hadChat GPT and that the market had overreacted and I because Google youoverreacted and I because Google youoverreacted and I because Google you know is a big company uh Global businessknow is a big company uh Global businessknow is a big company uh Global business Regulators uh scrutinized it incrediblyRegulators uh scrutinized it incrediblyRegulators uh scrutinized it incredibly carefully they couldn't take some of thecarefully they couldn't take some of thecarefully they couldn't take some of the same Liberties a startup like open AI
same Liberties a startup like open AIsame Liberties a startup like open AI did in releasing a product and I thinkdid in releasing a product and I thinkdid in releasing a product and I think Google took a more cautious approach inGoogle took a more cautious approach inGoogle took a more cautious approach in releasing an early version of Bard inreleasing an early version of Bard inreleasing an early version of Bard in terms of its capabilities and that letterms of its capabilities and that letterms of its capabilities and that let the mark the world to believe that theythe mark the world to believe that theythe mark the world to believe that they were behind and we ultimately concludedwere behind and we ultimately concludedwere behind and we ultimately concluded if any they're tied or ahead and you'reif any they're tied or ahead and you'reif any they're tied or ahead and you're paying nothing uh for the that potentialpaying nothing uh for the that potentialpaying nothing uh for the that potential business and they're going to and theybusiness and they're going to and theybusiness and they're going to and they also have huge advantages by you thinkalso have huge advantages by you thinkalso have huge advantages by you think of all the data Google has like theof all the data Google has like theof all the data Google has like the search data um all the various app yousearch data um all the various app yousearch data um all the various app you know applications you know email andknow applications you know email andknow applications you know email and otherwise and the kind of the Googleotherwise and the kind of the Googleotherwise and the kind of the Google Suite of of products it's an incredibleSuite of of products it's an incredibleSuite of of products it's an incredible data set so they have more training datadata set so they have more training datadata set so they have more training data than pretty much any company in thethan pretty much any company in thethan pretty much any company in the world they have incredible Engineersworld they have incredible Engineersworld they have incredible Engineers they have enormous Financial Resourcesthey have enormous Financial Resourcesthey have enormous Financial Resources uh so that was kind of the BET and umuh so that was kind of the BET and umuh so that was kind of the BET and um and we still think it's probably theand we still think it's probably the
and we still think it's probably the cheapest of the big seven companies incheapest of the big seven companies incheapest of the big seven companies in terms of price you're paying for theterms of price you're paying for theterms of price you're paying for the business relative to its currentbusiness relative to its currentbusiness relative to its current earnings it also is a business uh thatearnings it also is a business uh thatearnings it also is a business uh that has a lot of potential for efficiencyhas a lot of potential for efficiencyhas a lot of potential for efficiency you know sometimes when you have thisyou know sometimes when you have thisyou know sometimes when you have this enormously profitable dominant companyenormously profitable dominant companyenormously profitable dominant company you know all of the technology companiesyou know all of the technology companiesyou know all of the technology companies in the post March 20 world uh grewin the post March 20 world uh grewin the post March 20 world uh grew enormously in terms of their teams andenormously in terms of their teams andenormously in terms of their teams and they probably over hired and so you'vethey probably over hired and so you'vethey probably over hired and so you've seen some you know the Facebooks of theseen some you know the Facebooks of theseen some you know the Facebooks of the world and now even Google starting toworld and now even Google starting toworld and now even Google starting to get a little more efficient in terms ofget a little more efficient in terms ofget a little more efficient in terms of their operation so we P up low multipletheir operation so we P up low multipletheir operation so we P up low multiple for their the business um one way tofor their the business um one way tofor their the business um one way to think about the value of the business isthink about the value of the business isthink about the value of the business is the price you pay for the earnings orthe price you pay for the earnings orthe price you pay for the earnings or alternatively what's the yield if youalternatively what's the yield if youalternatively what's the yield if you flip over the price over the earnings itflip over the price over the earnings itflip over the price over the earnings it gives you kind of the yield of thegives you kind of the yield of thegives you kind of the yield of the business so a 15 multiple is about a
business so a 15 multiple is about abusiness so a 15 multiple is about a almost a 7 a half% yield and thatalmost a 7 a half% yield and thatalmost a 7 a half% yield and that earnings yield is growing over time asearnings yield is growing over time asearnings yield is growing over time as the business grows that's a you knowthe business grows that's a you knowthe business grows that's a you know compared to uh what you can earn lendingcompared to uh what you can earn lendingcompared to uh what you can earn lending your money to the government you know 4%your money to the government you know 4%your money to the government you know 4% that's a very attractive going in yieldthat's a very attractive going in yieldthat's a very attractive going in yield and then there's all kinds of what weand then there's all kinds of what weand then there's all kinds of what we call optionality in all the variouscall optionality in all the variouscall optionality in all the various businesses and Investments they've madebusinesses and Investments they've madebusinesses and Investments they've made that are losing money they've got athat are losing money they've got athat are losing money they've got a cloud business that's growing verycloud business that's growing verycloud business that's growing very rapidly but they're investing basicallyrapidly but they're investing basicallyrapidly but they're investing basically 100% of the profits from that business100% of the profits from that business100% of the profits from that business in growth so you're in that earningsin growth so you're in that earningsin growth so you're in that earnings number you're not seeing any earningsnumber you're not seeing any earningsnumber you're not seeing any earnings from the cloud business and you knowfrom the cloud business and you knowfrom the cloud business and you know they're one of the top Cloud Player sothey're one of the top Cloud Player sothey're one of the top Cloud Player so veryveryvery interesting generally well-managed uhinteresting generally well-managed uhinteresting generally well-managed uh company with Incredible assets andcompany with Incredible assets andcompany with Incredible assets and resources and dominance you know and hasresources and dominance you know and hasresources and dominance you know and has no debt it's got ton of cash and sono debt it's got ton of cash and sono debt it's got ton of cash and so pretty good story is there something
pretty good story is there somethingpretty good story is there something fundamentally different about AI thatfundamentally different about AI thatfundamentally different about AI that makes all of this more complicated whichmakes all of this more complicated whichmakes all of this more complicated which is the sort of the exponentialis the sort of the exponentialis the sort of the exponential possibilities of the kinds of productspossibilities of the kinds of productspossibilities of the kinds of products and impact that AI could create whenand impact that AI could create whenand impact that AI could create when you're looking at meta Microsoftyou're looking at meta Microsoftyou're looking at meta Microsoft alphabet Google all these companiesalphabet Google all these companiesalphabet Google all these companies xai or maybe startups like is is therexai or maybe startups like is is therexai or maybe startups like is is there some more risk introduced by thesome more risk introduced by thesome more risk introduced by the possibilities of AI absolutely that's apossibilities of AI absolutely that's apossibilities of AI absolutely that's a great question um you know businessgreat question um you know businessgreat question um you know business investing is about finding companiesinvesting is about finding companiesinvesting is about finding companies that can't be disrupted AI is thethat can't be disrupted AI is thethat can't be disrupted AI is the ultimate disruptable asset uh orultimate disruptable asset uh orultimate disruptable asset uh or technology and it that's what makestechnology and it that's what makestechnology and it that's what makes investing treacherous is that you own ainvesting treacherous is that you own ainvesting treacherous is that you own a business that's enormously profitablebusiness that's enormously profitablebusiness that's enormously profitable management gets if you will fat andmanagement gets if you will fat andmanagement gets if you will fat and happy and then a new technology emergeshappy and then a new technology emergeshappy and then a new technology emerges that just takes away all theirthat just takes away all theirthat just takes away all their profitability and AI is this incrediblyprofitability and AI is this incrediblyprofitability and AI is this incredibly powerful tool which is why everypowerful tool which is why everypowerful tool which is why every business is saying how can I use AI in
business is saying how can I use AI inbusiness is saying how can I use AI in in my business to make us morein my business to make us morein my business to make us more profitable more successful grow fasterprofitable more successful grow fasterprofitable more successful grow faster and also disrupt or protect oursel fromand also disrupt or protect oursel fromand also disrupt or protect oursel from thethethe you know the incomings you know it'syou know the incomings you know it'syou know the incomings you know it's it's a bit like you know Buffett talksit's a bit like you know Buffett talksit's a bit like you know Buffett talks about um a great business like a castleabout um a great business like a castleabout um a great business like a castle surrounded by this really wide mode butsurrounded by this really wide mode butsurrounded by this really wide mode but you have all these barbarians trying toyou have all these barbarians trying toyou have all these barbarians trying to get in and uh steal the uh princess andget in and uh steal the uh princess andget in and uh steal the uh princess and uh it happens you know Kodak for exampleuh it happens you know Kodak for exampleuh it happens you know Kodak for example was an amazing incredibly dominantwas an amazing incredibly dominantwas an amazing incredibly dominant company until it disappeared Polaroidcompany until it disappeared Polaroidcompany until it disappeared Polaroid you know this incredibleyou know this incredibleyou know this incredible technology and that's why we have tendedtechnology and that's why we have tendedtechnology and that's why we have tended to stay away from companies that areto stay away from companies that areto stay away from companies that are technology companies because technologytechnology companies because technologytechnology companies because technology companies generally the world is such acompanies generally the world is such acompanies generally the world is such a dynamic place that someone's alwaysdynamic place that someone's alwaysdynamic place that someone's always working on a better version and you knowworking on a better version and you knowworking on a better version and you know codec was caught up in the analog filmcodec was caught up in the analog filmcodec was caught up in the analog film world and then the world changed wellworld and then the world changed wellworld and then the world changed well Google was pretty fat and happy until
Google was pretty fat and happy untilGoogle was pretty fat and happy until chadti came out how would you rate theirchadti came out how would you rate theirchadti came out how would you rate their ability to wake up lose weight and be uhability to wake up lose weight and be uhability to wake up lose weight and be uh less happy and aggressively ReDiscoverless happy and aggressively ReDiscoverless happy and aggressively ReDiscover their search for happiness I thinktheir search for happiness I thinktheir search for happiness I think you've seen a lot of that in the lastyou've seen a lot of that in the lastyou've seen a lot of that in the last year here uh and uh I would say someyear here uh and uh I would say someyear here uh and uh I would say some combination of embarrassment and pridecombination of embarrassment and pridecombination of embarrassment and pride are huge motivators uh for everyone fromare huge motivators uh for everyone fromare huge motivators uh for everyone from Sergey Brin you know to the managementSergey Brin you know to the managementSergey Brin you know to the management of the company um and Demis Saab isof the company um and Demis Saab isof the company um and Demis Saab is throw in into the picture and all ofthrow in into the picture and all ofthrow in into the picture and all of Deep Mind teams and the unification ofDeep Mind teams and the unification ofDeep Mind teams and the unification of teams and like all the shakeups it wasteams and like all the shakeups it wasteams and like all the shakeups it was interesting to watch the chaos I love itinteresting to watch the chaos I love itinteresting to watch the chaos I love it I love it when uh everybody freaks outI love it when uh everybody freaks outI love it when uh everybody freaks out like you said partly embarrassment andlike you said partly embarrassment andlike you said partly embarrassment and partly that competitive drive thatpartly that competitive drive thatpartly that competitive drive that drives into engers is great I can't waitdrives into engers is great I can't waitdrives into engers is great I can't wait to see what um there've been just a lotto see what um there've been just a lotto see what um there've been just a lot of improvement in the product let's seeof improvement in the product let's seeof improvement in the product let's see let's see where it goes you mentioned
let's see where it goes you mentionedlet's see where it goes you mentioned management how do you analyze themanagement how do you analyze themanagement how do you analyze the governance structure and the individualgovernance structure and the individualgovernance structure and the individual humans that are the managers of ahumans that are the managers of ahumans that are the managers of a company so as I like to say incentivescompany so as I like to say incentivescompany so as I like to say incentives drive all human behavior uh and thatdrive all human behavior uh and thatdrive all human behavior uh and that certainly applies in the business worldcertainly applies in the business worldcertainly applies in the business world so understanding the people and whatso understanding the people and whatso understanding the people and what drives them and what the actualdrives them and what the actualdrives them and what the actual financial and other incentives of afinancial and other incentives of afinancial and other incentives of a business are very important uh part ofbusiness are very important uh part ofbusiness are very important uh part of the analysis for investing in athe analysis for investing in athe analysis for investing in a company and you can learn a lot you knowcompany and you can learn a lot you knowcompany and you can learn a lot you know I mentioned before one great way toI mentioned before one great way toI mentioned before one great way to learn about a business is go back alearn about a business is go back alearn about a business is go back a decade and read everything thatdecade and read everything thatdecade and read everything that management has written about themanagement has written about themanagement has written about the business and see what they've done overbusiness and see what they've done overbusiness and see what they've done over time see what they've said you knowtime see what they've said you knowtime see what they've said you know conference calls are actually you knowconference calls are actually you knowconference calls are actually you know relatively recent uh when I started inrelatively recent uh when I started inrelatively recent uh when I started in the business there weren't conferencethe business there weren't conferencethe business there weren't conference call transcripts now you have you know acall transcripts now you have you know a
call transcripts now you have you know a a written record of everythinga written record of everythinga written record of everything management has said in response tomanagement has said in response tomanagement has said in response to questions from analysts at conferencesquestions from analysts at conferencesquestions from analysts at conferences and otherwiseand otherwiseand otherwise and so just you learn a lot about peopleand so just you learn a lot about peopleand so just you learn a lot about people by listening to what they say how theyby listening to what they say how theyby listening to what they say how they answer questions and ultimately theiranswer questions and ultimately theiranswer questions and ultimately their track record for doing what they saytrack record for doing what they saytrack record for doing what they say they're going to do are do they underthey're going to do are do they underthey're going to do are do they under promise and overd deliver do theypromise and overd deliver do theypromise and overd deliver do they overpromise and underd deliver um dooverpromise and underd deliver um dooverpromise and underd deliver um do they say what they're going to do dothey say what they're going to do dothey say what they're going to do do they admit mistakes um do they buildthey admit mistakes um do they buildthey admit mistakes um do they build great teams do people want to come workgreat teams do people want to come workgreat teams do people want to come work for them are they able to retain theirfor them are they able to retain theirfor them are they able to retain their talent um you know and then part of ittalent um you know and then part of ittalent um you know and then part of it is do they how much are they running theis do they how much are they running theis do they how much are they running the business for the benefit of the businessbusiness for the benefit of the businessbusiness for the benefit of the business how they running the business for thehow they running the business for thehow they running the business for the benefit of themselves um and uh you knowbenefit of themselves um and uh you knowbenefit of themselves um and uh you know that's kind of the analysis you do arethat's kind of the analysis you do arethat's kind of the analysis you do are we uh talking about CEO Co what whatwe uh talking about CEO Co what whatwe uh talking about CEO Co what what what does management mean how deep does
what does management mean how deep doeswhat does management mean how deep does it go sure so this very Seniorit go sure so this very Seniorit go sure so this very Senior Management matters enormously you we useManagement matters enormously you we useManagement matters enormously you we use the Chipotle example uh Steve 's greatthe Chipotle example uh Steve 's greatthe Chipotle example uh Steve 's great entrepreneur business got to a scale heentrepreneur business got to a scale heentrepreneur business got to a scale he really couldn't uh run it we recruited areally couldn't uh run it we recruited areally couldn't uh run it we recruited a guy named Brian helped the companyguy named Brian helped the companyguy named Brian helped the company recruit a guy named Brian nickel uh andrecruit a guy named Brian nickel uh andrecruit a guy named Brian nickel uh and he was considered the best person in thehe was considered the best person in thehe was considered the best person in the Quick Service industQuick Service industQuick Service indust he came in and completely rebuilt thehe came in and completely rebuilt thehe came in and completely rebuilt the company actually we moved the companycompany actually we moved the companycompany actually we moved the company reply was moved toreply was moved toreply was moved to California and sometimes one way to redoCalifornia and sometimes one way to redoCalifornia and sometimes one way to redo the culture of a company is just to movethe culture of a company is just to movethe culture of a company is just to move it geographically and then you can kindit geographically and then you can kindit geographically and then you can kind of reboot the business but a greatof reboot the business but a greatof reboot the business but a great leader has great followership you knowleader has great followership you knowleader has great followership you know over the course of their career they'llover the course of their career they'llover the course of their career they'll have a team they've built that will comehave a team they've built that will comehave a team they've built that will come follow them into the next opportunity uhfollow them into the next opportunity uhfollow them into the next opportunity uh but the key is you know really the topbut the key is you know really the topbut the key is you know really the top person matters enormously uh because and
person matters enormously uh because andperson matters enormously uh because and then it's who theythen it's who theythen it's who they recruit uh you know you recruit an A+recruit uh you know you recruit an A+recruit uh you know you recruit an A+ leader and they're going to recruitleader and they're going to recruitleader and they're going to recruit other a type people recruit a b leaderother a type people recruit a b leaderother a type people recruit a b leader you're not going to recruit any greatyou're not going to recruit any greatyou're not going to recruit any great talent beneathtalent beneathtalent beneath them uh you mentioned Warren Buffett youthem uh you mentioned Warren Buffett youthem uh you mentioned Warren Buffett you said you admire him as an investor whatsaid you admire him as an investor whatsaid you admire him as an investor what do you find most interesting anddo you find most interesting anddo you find most interesting and Powerful about hisPowerful about hisPowerful about his approach what aspects of his approach toapproach what aspects of his approach toapproach what aspects of his approach to investing do you also practice sure soinvesting do you also practice sure soinvesting do you also practice sure so most of what I've learned in themost of what I've learned in themost of what I've learned in the investment business I've learned frominvestment business I've learned frominvestment business I've learned from waren Buffett he's been my greatwaren Buffett he's been my greatwaren Buffett he's been my great Professor uh of this business I my firstProfessor uh of this business I my firstProfessor uh of this business I my first book read in the business was the Benbook read in the business was the Benbook read in the business was the Ben Graham intelligent investor but fairlyGraham intelligent investor but fairlyGraham intelligent investor but fairly quickly you get to learn about Warrenquickly you get to learn about Warrenquickly you get to learn about Warren Buffett and I started by reading theBuffett and I started by reading theBuffett and I started by reading the Berkshire hathway and reports uh andBerkshire hathway and reports uh andBerkshire hathway and reports uh and then I eventually got the Buffettthen I eventually got the Buffettthen I eventually got the Buffett partnership letters that you can see uhpartnership letters that you can see uh
partnership letters that you can see uh which are an amazing read to go back towhich are an amazing read to go back towhich are an amazing read to go back to the 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrotethe 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrotethe 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrote to his limited partners when he firstto his limited partners when he firstto his limited partners when he first started out and just follow thatstarted out and just follow thatstarted out and just follow that trajectory over a long period of time sotrajectory over a long period of time sotrajectory over a long period of time so what's remarkable about him is onewhat's remarkable about him is onewhat's remarkable about him is one duration right he's still added atduration right he's still added atduration right he's still added at 93 uh you know to uh you know takes a93 uh you know to uh you know takes a93 uh you know to uh you know takes a very long-term view um but a big thingvery long-term view um but a big thingvery long-term view um but a big thing that you learn from him investingthat you learn from him investingthat you learn from him investing requires this incredible dispassionaterequires this incredible dispassionaterequires this incredible dispassionate uh on emotional quality you have to beuh on emotional quality you have to beuh on emotional quality you have to be extremely economically rational uh whichextremely economically rational uh whichextremely economically rational uh which is not uh a basic it's not something youis not uh a basic it's not something youis not uh a basic it's not something you learn in the jungle you know I don'tlearn in the jungle you know I don'tlearn in the jungle you know I don't think it's something that you know ifthink it's something that you know ifthink it's something that you know if you think about the the um you knowyou think about the the um you knowyou think about the the um you know surviving the jungle uh you know thesurviving the jungle uh you know thesurviving the jungle uh you know the lion shows up uh you know you everyonelion shows up uh you know you everyonelion shows up uh you know you everyone starts running you run with them uh thatstarts running you run with them uh thatstarts running you run with them uh that does not work well uh in markets in factdoes not work well uh in markets in factdoes not work well uh in markets in fact you generally have to do the opposite
you generally have to do the oppositeyou generally have to do the opposite right when the Lemmings are running overright when the Lemmings are running overright when the Lemmings are running over the cliff that's the time where you'rethe cliff that's the time where you'rethe cliff that's the time where you're facing the other direction and you'refacing the other direction and you'refacing the other direction and you're running the other direction I.E you'rerunning the other direction I.E you'rerunning the other direction I.E you're stepping in you're buying stocks atstepping in you're buying stocks atstepping in you're buying stocks at really low prices um you know Buffett'sreally low prices um you know Buffett'sreally low prices um you know Buffett's been great at that and great at teachingbeen great at that and great at teachingbeen great at that and great at teaching about what he calls temperament which isabout what he calls temperament which isabout what he calls temperament which is this sort of emotional kind of orthis sort of emotional kind of orthis sort of emotional kind of or unemotional uh quality that you need uhunemotional uh quality that you need uhunemotional uh quality that you need uh to be able to dispassionately look atto be able to dispassionately look atto be able to dispassionately look at the world and say okay is this a realthe world and say okay is this a realthe world and say okay is this a real RIS risk or peopleRIS risk or peopleRIS risk or people overreacting um people tend to getoverreacting um people tend to getoverreacting um people tend to get excited about Investments when stocksexcited about Investments when stocksexcited about Investments when stocks are going up and they get depressed whenare going up and they get depressed whenare going up and they get depressed when they're going down and that I thinkthey're going down and that I thinkthey're going down and that I think that's just inherently human you have tothat's just inherently human you have tothat's just inherently human you have to reverse that you have to get excitedreverse that you have to get excitedreverse that you have to get excited when things get cheaper and you got towhen things get cheaper and you got towhen things get cheaper and you got to get concern when things get moreget concern when things get moreget concern when things get more expensive you've been a part of some big
expensive you've been a part of some bigexpensive you've been a part of some big battles some big losses some big wins sobattles some big losses some big wins sobattles some big losses some big wins so it's been a roller coaster so in termsit's been a roller coaster so in termsit's been a roller coaster so in terms of temperament psychologically how doof temperament psychologically how doof temperament psychologically how do you not let that break you how do youyou not let that break you how do youyou not let that break you how do you maintain amaintain amaintain a calm uh demeanor and avoid running withcalm uh demeanor and avoid running withcalm uh demeanor and avoid running with thethe Lemmings I think it's something you kindLemmings I think it's something you kindLemmings I think it's something you kind of learn over time uh a key successof learn over time uh a key successof learn over time uh a key success factor is you want to have enough moneyfactor is you want to have enough moneyfactor is you want to have enough money in the bank that you're going to survivein the bank that you're going to survivein the bank that you're going to survive uh you know regardless of what's goinguh you know regardless of what's goinguh you know regardless of what's going on with volatility and markets you knowon with volatility and markets you knowon with volatility and markets you know people who uh one you shouldn't borrowpeople who uh one you shouldn't borrowpeople who uh one you shouldn't borrow money so if you borrow money you ownmoney so if you borrow money you ownmoney so if you borrow money you own stocks on margin markets are going downstocks on margin markets are going downstocks on margin markets are going down and you have your livelihood at riskand you have your livelihood at riskand you have your livelihood at risk it's very difficult to be rational soit's very difficult to be rational soit's very difficult to be rational so key is getting yourself to a place wherekey is getting yourself to a place wherekey is getting yourself to a place where you're financially secure you're notyou're financially secure you're notyou're financially secure you're not going to lose your house right that's agoing to lose your house right that's agoing to lose your house right that's a kind of a key thing and then also doingkind of a key thing and then also doingkind of a key thing and then also doing your homework you know stock prices
your homework you know stock pricesyour homework you know stock prices stocks can trade at any price in thestocks can trade at any price in thestocks can trade at any price in the short term and if you know what ashort term and if you know what ashort term and if you know what a business is worth and you understand thebusiness is worth and you understand thebusiness is worth and you understand the management you know it extremely wellmanagement you know it extremely wellmanagement you know it extremely well it's not nearly as uh it doesn't botherit's not nearly as uh it doesn't botherit's not nearly as uh it doesn't bother you when a stock price goes down or ityou when a stock price goes down or ityou when a stock price goes down or it has much less impact on you because youhas much less impact on you because youhas much less impact on you because you know you know again as uh Mr Graham saidknow you know again as uh Mr Graham saidknow you know again as uh Mr Graham said you know the short- term the markets ayou know the short- term the markets ayou know the short- term the markets a voting machine you have a bunch ofvoting machine you have a bunch ofvoting machine you have a bunch of lemmings voting One Direction that'slemmings voting One Direction that'slemmings voting One Direction that's concerning but if it's a great businessconcerning but if it's a great businessconcerning but if it's a great business doesn't have a lot of debt and peopledoesn't have a lot of debt and peopledoesn't have a lot of debt and people going just listen to more music nextgoing just listen to more music nextgoing just listen to more music next year than this year you know you'reyear than this year you know you'reyear than this year you know you're going to do well uh so it's a bit somegoing to do well uh so it's a bit somegoing to do well uh so it's a bit some combination of being personally securecombination of being personally securecombination of being personally secure and also just knowing what you own uhand also just knowing what you own uhand also just knowing what you own uh and over time you build uh uh calluses Iand over time you build uh uh calluses Iand over time you build uh uh calluses I would say so psychologically just as awould say so psychologically just as awould say so psychologically just as a human being speaking of lines and gazelhuman being speaking of lines and gazel
human being speaking of lines and gazel and all this kind of stuff yeah is thereand all this kind of stuff yeah is thereand all this kind of stuff yeah is there some is it as simple as just beingsome is it as simple as just beingsome is it as simple as just being financially secure uh is there some justfinancially secure uh is there some justfinancially secure uh is there some just human qualities that you have to be bornhuman qualities that you have to be bornhuman qualities that you have to be born with Slash develop I think so I think uhwith Slash develop I think so I think uhwith Slash develop I think so I think uh now I'm a pretty emotional person Inow I'm a pretty emotional person Inow I'm a pretty emotional person I would say or I feel pretty strongwould say or I feel pretty strongwould say or I feel pretty strong emotions but not an investing I'm remarkemotions but not an investing I'm remarkemotions but not an investing I'm remark ably immune to kind of volatility andably immune to kind of volatility andably immune to kind of volatility and that's a big advantage and it took somethat's a big advantage and it took somethat's a big advantage and it took some time for me to develop that so youtime for me to develop that so youtime for me to develop that so you weren't born with that you think no soweren't born with that you think no soweren't born with that you think no so being emotional you want to respond tobeing emotional you want to respond tobeing emotional you want to respond to volatility yeah and you just it's a bitvolatility yeah and you just it's a bitvolatility yeah and you just it's a bit again I you can learn a lot from otheragain I you can learn a lot from otheragain I you can learn a lot from other people's experience it's one of the thepeople's experience it's one of the thepeople's experience it's one of the the few businesses where you can learn anfew businesses where you can learn anfew businesses where you can learn an enormous amount by reading about otherenormous amount by reading about otherenormous amount by reading about other periods in history uh you know watch youperiods in history uh you know watch youperiods in history uh you know watch you know following Buffett's career theknow following Buffett's career theknow following Buffett's career the mistakes he made if you're investing amistakes he made if you're investing amistakes he made if you're investing a lot of capital every one of your
lot of capital every one of yourlot of capital every one of your mistakes is going to be big right somistakes is going to be big right somistakes is going to be big right so we've made big mistakes uh the good newswe've made big mistakes uh the good newswe've made big mistakes uh the good news is that the vast majority of thingsis that the vast majority of thingsis that the vast majority of things we've done have worked out really wellwe've done have worked out really wellwe've done have worked out really well and so that also gives you you knowand so that also gives you you knowand so that also gives you you know confidence over time but because we makeconfidence over time but because we makeconfidence over time but because we make very few Investments you know we ownvery few Investments you know we ownvery few Investments you know we own eight things today or seven companies ofeight things today or seven companies ofeight things today or seven companies of that matter um if we get one wrong it'sthat matter um if we get one wrong it'sthat matter um if we get one wrong it's going to be big news and so the othergoing to be big news and so the othergoing to be big news and so the other nature of our business you have to benature of our business you have to benature of our business you have to be comfortable with is a lot of publiccomfortable with is a lot of publiccomfortable with is a lot of public scrutiny a lot of public criticism andscrutiny a lot of public criticism andscrutiny a lot of public criticism and that requiresthat requiresthat requires some uh experience call that I thinksome uh experience call that I thinksome uh experience call that I think we'll talk about some of that yeah uhwe'll talk about some of that yeah uhwe'll talk about some of that yeah uh financially secure is something you Ifinancially secure is something you Ifinancially secure is something you I believe also recommend for even justbelieve also recommend for even justbelieve also recommend for even just everyday investors is there some generaleveryday investors is there some generaleveryday investors is there some general advice from the things you've beenadvice from the things you've beenadvice from the things you've been talking about that applies to Everydaytalking about that applies to Everydaytalking about that applies to Everyday investors sure so never invest money youinvestors sure so never invest money you
investors sure so never invest money you can't afford to lose where it would ifcan't afford to lose where it would ifcan't afford to lose where it would if you l lost this this money and you knowyou l lost this this money and you knowyou l lost this this money and you know you lose your house Etc soyou lose your house Etc soyou lose your house Etc so having being in a place where uh you'rehaving being in a place where uh you'rehaving being in a place where uh you're investing money that you don't careinvesting money that you don't careinvesting money that you don't care about the price in the short term it'sabout the price in the short term it'sabout the price in the short term it's money for your retirement and you take amoney for your retirement and you take amoney for your retirement and you take a really long-term view I think that's keyreally long-term view I think that's keyreally long-term view I think that's key uh never investing where you borrowuh never investing where you borrowuh never investing where you borrow money against your securities you knowmoney against your securities you knowmoney against your securities you know the the markets offer you thethe the markets offer you thethe the markets offer you the opportunity to leverage your investmentopportunity to leverage your investmentopportunity to leverage your investment and in most worlds you'll be okay exceptand in most worlds you'll be okay exceptand in most worlds you'll be okay except if you know there's a financial crisisif you know there's a financial crisisif you know there's a financial crisis or you know a nuclear device getsor you know a nuclear device getsor you know a nuclear device gets detonated God forbid somewhere in thedetonated God forbid somewhere in thedetonated God forbid somewhere in the world or there's a unexpected war or youworld or there's a unexpected war or youworld or there's a unexpected war or you know someone kills a leader unexpectedlyknow someone kills a leader unexpectedlyknow someone kills a leader unexpectedly you know things happen that can changeyou know things happen that can changeyou know things happen that can change the course of history and markets reactthe course of history and markets reactthe course of history and markets react very negatively to those kinds of eventsvery negatively to those kinds of eventsvery negatively to those kinds of events and you can own the greatest business in
and you can own the greatest business inand you can own the greatest business in the world trading for $100 a share andthe world trading for $100 a share andthe world trading for $100 a share and next moment it could be 50 so as long asnext moment it could be 50 so as long asnext moment it could be 50 so as long as you don't borrow against Securities youyou don't borrow against Securities youyou don't borrow against Securities you own really high quality businesses andown really high quality businesses andown really high quality businesses and it's it's not money that you need in theit's it's not money that you need in theit's it's not money that you need in the short term uh then you can you canshort term uh then you can you canshort term uh then you can you can actually be thoughtful about it and thatactually be thoughtful about it and thatactually be thoughtful about it and that is a huge Advantage the vast majority ofis a huge Advantage the vast majority ofis a huge Advantage the vast majority of investors it seems tend to be the onesinvestors it seems tend to be the onesinvestors it seems tend to be the ones that panic in the downturns getthat panic in the downturns getthat panic in the downturns get overrated and when markets are doingoverrated and when markets are doingoverrated and when markets are doing well so be able to think longterm and bewell so be able to think longterm and bewell so be able to think longterm and be sufficiently financially secure suchsufficiently financially secure suchsufficiently financially secure such that you can afford to think long termthat you can afford to think long termthat you can afford to think long term yeah that Buffett is the ultimateyeah that Buffett is the ultimateyeah that Buffett is the ultimate long-term thinker and just the decisionslong-term thinker and just the decisionslong-term thinker and just the decisions he makes uh the consistency of thehe makes uh the consistency of thehe makes uh the consistency of the decisions he's made over time anddecisions he's made over time anddecisions he's made over time and fitting into that sort of long-termfitting into that sort of long-termfitting into that sort of long-term framework is a very uh very educationalframework is a very uh very educationalframework is a very uh very educational let's put it that way for the forlet's put it that way for the forlet's put it that way for the for learning about this business so you
learning about this business so youlearning about this business so you mentioned eight companies but what domentioned eight companies but what domentioned eight companies but what do you think about mutual funds that foryou think about mutual funds that foryou think about mutual funds that for everyday investors that diversify acrosseveryday investors that diversify acrosseveryday investors that diversify across a larger number of companies I thinka larger number of companies I thinka larger number of companies I think there are very few mutual funds uh therethere are very few mutual funds uh therethere are very few mutual funds uh there thousands and thousands of mutual fundsthousands and thousands of mutual fundsthousands and thousands of mutual funds they're very few that earn their keep inthey're very few that earn their keep inthey're very few that earn their keep in terms of the fees they charge uh theyterms of the fees they charge uh theyterms of the fees they charge uh they tend to be tootend to be tootend to be too Diversified um andDiversified um andDiversified um and uh you know too shortterm and you'reuh you know too shortterm and you'reuh you know too shortterm and you're often much better off just buying anoften much better off just buying anoften much better off just buying an index fund and many of themindex fund and many of themindex fund and many of them perform they look if you look carefullyperform they look if you look carefullyperform they look if you look carefully at their portfolios they're not soat their portfolios they're not soat their portfolios they're not so different from the underlying indexdifferent from the underlying indexdifferent from the underlying index itself and you tend to pay a much higheritself and you tend to pay a much higheritself and you tend to pay a much higher fee uh now all of that being saidfee uh now all of that being saidfee uh now all of that being said there's very talented mutual fundthere's very talented mutual fundthere's very talented mutual fund managers a guy named will danoff atmanagers a guy named will danoff atmanagers a guy named will danoff at Fidelity had a great record over a longFidelity had a great record over a longFidelity had a great record over a long period of time you the famous Peterperiod of time you the famous Peterperiod of time you the famous Peter Lynch uh Ron Baron another great
Lynch uh Ron Baron another greatLynch uh Ron Baron another great long-term growth stock investor solong-term growth stock investor solong-term growth stock investor so there's some great uh mutual funds but Ithere's some great uh mutual funds but Ithere's some great uh mutual funds but I put them in the handful versus theput them in the handful versus theput them in the handful versus the thousands and if you're in you know thethousands and if you're in you know thethousands and if you're in you know the thousands I I'd rather someone boughtthousands I I'd rather someone boughtthousands I I'd rather someone bought just an index fund basically yeah indexjust an index fund basically yeah indexjust an index fund basically yeah index funds but what uh what would be the leapfunds but what uh what would be the leapfunds but what uh what would be the leap for an everyday investor to go tofor an everyday investor to go tofor an everyday investor to go to investing in a small number of companiesinvesting in a small number of companiesinvesting in a small number of companies like 2 three four five companies I evenlike 2 three four five companies I evenlike 2 three four five companies I even recommend for individual investors torecommend for individual investors torecommend for individual investors to invest in you know a dozen companies youinvest in you know a dozen companies youinvest in you know a dozen companies you don't get that much more benefit ofdon't get that much more benefit ofdon't get that much more benefit of diversification going from a dozen to 25diversification going from a dozen to 25diversification going from a dozen to 25 or even 50 you know most of the benefitsor even 50 you know most of the benefitsor even 50 you know most of the benefits diversification come in the first youdiversification come in the first youdiversification come in the first you know call it 10 or 12 uh and if you'reknow call it 10 or 12 uh and if you'reknow call it 10 or 12 uh and if you're investing in businesses that don't haveinvesting in businesses that don't haveinvesting in businesses that don't have a lot of debt they're businesses thata lot of debt they're businesses thata lot of debt they're businesses that you can understand yourself youyou can understand yourself youyou can understand yourself you understand you know actually individualunderstand you know actually individual
understand you know actually individual investors did a much better jobinvestors did a much better jobinvestors did a much better job analyzing Tesla than the so-calledanalyzing Tesla than the so-calledanalyzing Tesla than the so-called professional investors or analysts theprofessional investors or analysts theprofessional investors or analysts the vast majority of them so if it's avast majority of them so if it's avast majority of them so if it's a business you understand you if youbusiness you understand you if youbusiness you understand you if you bought a Tesla you understand thebought a Tesla you understand thebought a Tesla you understand the product and its appeal to Consumers youproduct and its appeal to Consumers youproduct and its appeal to Consumers you know it's a good place to start whenknow it's a good place to start whenknow it's a good place to start when you're analyzing a company um so I wouldyou're analyzing a company um so I wouldyou're analyzing a company um so I would invest in things you can understandinvest in things you can understandinvest in things you can understand that's kind of a key uh you know youthat's kind of a key uh you know youthat's kind of a key uh you know you like Chipotle you you understand whylike Chipotle you you understand whylike Chipotle you you understand why they're successful you can you know gothey're successful you can you know gothey're successful you can you know go there every week week and you canthere every week week and you canthere every week week and you can monitor you know is anything changingmonitor you know is anything changingmonitor you know is anything changing you how these new uh kind of how'syou how these new uh kind of how'syou how these new uh kind of how's chicken alpastor is that is that a goodchicken alpastor is that is that a goodchicken alpastor is that is that a good upgrade from the basic chicken you knowupgrade from the basic chicken you knowupgrade from the basic chicken you know the drink offerings improving uh thethe drink offerings improving uh thethe drink offerings improving uh the stores clean I think you should investstores clean I think you should investstores clean I think you should invest in companies you really understandin companies you really understandin companies you really understand simple businesses where you can predictsimple businesses where you can predict
simple businesses where you can predict with a high degree of confidence whatwith a high degree of confidence whatwith a high degree of confidence what it's going to look like over time and ifit's going to look like over time and ifit's going to look like over time and if you do that in a not particularlyyou do that in a not particularlyyou do that in a not particularly concentrated fashion and you don'tconcentrated fashion and you don'tconcentrated fashion and you don't borrow money against your securities youborrow money against your securities youborrow money against your securities you probably do much better than yourprobably do much better than yourprobably do much better than your typical mutual fund yeah it'stypical mutual fund yeah it'stypical mutual fund yeah it's interesting consumers that love a thinginteresting consumers that love a thinginteresting consumers that love a thing are actually good analysts of that thingare actually good analysts of that thingare actually good analysts of that thing or I guess a good starting point by wayor I guess a good starting point by wayor I guess a good starting point by way there's much more information availablethere's much more information availablethere's much more information available today when I was first investingtoday when I was first investingtoday when I was first investing literally we had people faxing usliterally we had people faxing usliterally we had people faxing us documents from the SEC filings indocuments from the SEC filings indocuments from the SEC filings in Washington DC now everything's availableWashington DC now everything's availableWashington DC now everything's available online conference call transcripts areonline conference call transcripts areonline conference call transcripts are free um you know there you have you havefree um you know there you have you havefree um you know there you have you have ai you know you have uh unlimited uhai you know you have uh unlimited uhai you know you have uh unlimited uh data and uh all kinds of mess M boardsdata and uh all kinds of mess M boardsdata and uh all kinds of mess M boards and Reddit forums and things whereand Reddit forums and things whereand Reddit forums and things where people are you know sharing advice andpeople are you know sharing advice andpeople are you know sharing advice and everyone has their own you know byeveryone has their own you know by
everyone has their own you know by virtue of their career or experiencevirtue of their career or experiencevirtue of their career or experience they they'll they'll know about anthey they'll they'll know about anthey they'll they'll know about an industry or a business and that gives Iindustry or a business and that gives Iindustry or a business and that gives I would take advantage of your ownwould take advantage of your ownwould take advantage of your own competitive advantages I'm just afraidcompetitive advantages I'm just afraidcompetitive advantages I'm just afraid if I invest in Chipotle I'll be likeif I invest in Chipotle I'll be likeif I invest in Chipotle I'll be like analyzing every little change of menuanalyzing every little change of menuanalyzing every little change of menu from a financial perspective and just befrom a financial perspective and just befrom a financial perspective and just be very critical um if it's going to affectvery critical um if it's going to affectvery critical um if it's going to affect your experience I wouldn't I wouldn'tyour experience I wouldn't I wouldn'tyour experience I wouldn't I wouldn't buy the stock yeah I mean I I shouldbuy the stock yeah I mean I I shouldbuy the stock yeah I mean I I should also say that I am somebody thatalso say that I am somebody thatalso say that I am somebody that emotionally doesn't respond toemotionally doesn't respond toemotionally doesn't respond to volatility which is why I've nevervolatility which is why I've nevervolatility which is why I've never bought index funds and I just I justbought index funds and I just I justbought index funds and I just I just noticed myself psychologically beingnoticed myself psychologically beingnoticed myself psychologically being affected by the ups and downs of theaffected by the ups and downs of theaffected by the ups and downs of the market I want to tune out because if I'mmarket I want to tune out because if I'mmarket I want to tune out because if I'm at all tuned in it has a negative impactat all tuned in it has a negative impactat all tuned in it has a negative impact on my life yeah that's really importanton my life yeah that's really importanton my life yeah that's really important can you explain what activist investingcan you explain what activist investingcan you explain what activist investing is you've been talking about investingis you've been talking about investing
is you've been talking about investing and then looking at companies whenand then looking at companies whenand then looking at companies when they're struggling stepping in andthey're struggling stepping in andthey're struggling stepping in and reconfiguring things within that companyreconfiguring things within that companyreconfiguring things within that company and helping it become great uh so that'sand helping it become great uh so that'sand helping it become great uh so that's part of it but let's just zoom out whatpart of it but let's just zoom out whatpart of it but let's just zoom out what what's this idea of activist investing Iwhat's this idea of activist investing Iwhat's this idea of activist investing I think recently in the last couple ofthink recently in the last couple ofthink recently in the last couple of days I read an article saying that moredays I read an article saying that moredays I read an article saying that more than 50% of the capital in the worldthan 50% of the capital in the worldthan 50% of the capital in the world today that's in invest in the stocktoday that's in invest in the stocktoday that's in invest in the stock markets passive indexed money that's themarkets passive indexed money that's themarkets passive indexed money that's the most passive form right so if you thinkmost passive form right so if you thinkmost passive form right so if you think about an index fund a machine buys aabout an index fund a machine buys aabout an index fund a machine buys a fixed set of Securities in certainfixed set of Securities in certainfixed set of Securities in certain proportion uh there's no human Judgmentproportion uh there's no human Judgmentproportion uh there's no human Judgment at all and there's no real person behindat all and there's no real person behindat all and there's no real person behind it in a way um they never take steps toit in a way um they never take steps toit in a way um they never take steps to improve a business they just quietly ownimprove a business they just quietly ownimprove a business they just quietly own Securities what we do is we invest ourSecurities what we do is we invest ourSecurities what we do is we invest our capital in a handful of things you getcapital in a handful of things you getcapital in a handful of things you get to know them really really well becauseto know them really really well because
to know them really really well because you're going to put 20% of your assetsyou're going to put 20% of your assetsyou're going to put 20% of your assets in something you need to know it reallyin something you need to know it reallyin something you need to know it really well but once you become a big holderwell but once you become a big holderwell but once you become a big holder and if you've got a some thoughts on howand if you've got a some thoughts on howand if you've got a some thoughts on how to make a business more valuableto make a business more valuableto make a business more valuable you can do more than just be a passiveyou can do more than just be a passiveyou can do more than just be a passive investor so our our strategy is builtinvestor so our our strategy is builtinvestor so our our strategy is built upon uh finding great companies in someupon uh finding great companies in someupon uh finding great companies in some cases that have lost their way and thencases that have lost their way and thencases that have lost their way and then helping them succeed and we can do thathelping them succeed and we can do thathelping them succeed and we can do that with ideas from outside the boardroomwith ideas from outside the boardroomwith ideas from outside the boardroom sometimes we take a seat at on a boardsometimes we take a seat at on a boardsometimes we take a seat at on a board or more than one um and we work with theor more than one um and we work with theor more than one um and we work with the best management teams in the world tobest management teams in the world tobest management teams in the world to help these businesses succeed so when Ihelp these businesses succeed so when Ihelp these businesses succeed so when I first went into this business no onefirst went into this business no onefirst went into this business no one knew who weknew who weknew who we were and we didn't have that much moneywere and we didn't have that much moneywere and we didn't have that much money and so to influence what was to us a bigand so to influence what was to us a bigand so to influence what was to us a big company uh we had to make a fair bitcompany uh we had to make a fair bitcompany uh we had to make a fair bit more noise right so we would buy a stakemore noise right so we would buy a stakemore noise right so we would buy a stake we' announce it publicly we attempt to
we' announce it publicly we attempt towe' announce it publicly we attempt to engage with management the firstengage with management the firstengage with management the first activist investment we made at persingactivist investment we made at persingactivist investment we made at persing Square was Wendy's I couldn't get theSquare was Wendy's I couldn't get theSquare was Wendy's I couldn't get the CEO to ever return my call didn't returnCEO to ever return my call didn't returnCEO to ever return my call didn't return my call so we actually in that case uhmy call so we actually in that case uhmy call so we actually in that case uh our idea was Wendy's own a companyour idea was Wendy's own a companyour idea was Wendy's own a company called Tim Hortons which was this coffeecalled Tim Hortons which was this coffeecalled Tim Hortons which was this coffee donut chain and you could buy Wendy'sdonut chain and you could buy Wendy'sdonut chain and you could buy Wendy's for basically $5for basically $5for basically $5 billion and they owned 100% of Timbillion and they owned 100% of Timbillion and they owned 100% of Tim Horton's which itself was worth moreHorton's which itself was worth moreHorton's which itself was worth more than 5 billion so you could literallythan 5 billion so you could literallythan 5 billion so you could literally buy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and getbuy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and getbuy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and get Wendy's for negative value that seemedWendy's for negative value that seemedWendy's for negative value that seemed like a pretty good opportunity evenlike a pretty good opportunity evenlike a pretty good opportunity even though the business wasn't doing thatthough the business wasn't doing thatthough the business wasn't doing that well uh so we bought the stake calledwell uh so we bought the stake calledwell uh so we bought the stake called the CEO couldn't get a meeting nothingthe CEO couldn't get a meeting nothingthe CEO couldn't get a meeting nothing so we hired actually Blackstone whichso we hired actually Blackstone whichso we hired actually Blackstone which was at that time had at Investment Bankwas at that time had at Investment Bankwas at that time had at Investment Bank and we hired them to do what's called aand we hired them to do what's called aand we hired them to do what's called a fairness opinion of what Wendy's would
fairness opinion of what Wendy's wouldfairness opinion of what Wendy's would be worth if they followed our advice andbe worth if they followed our advice andbe worth if they followed our advice and they agreed to do it paid them a fee forthey agreed to do it paid them a fee forthey agreed to do it paid them a fee for it and then we mailed in a letter with ait and then we mailed in a letter with ait and then we mailed in a letter with a copy of the fairness opinion sayingcopy of the fairness opinion sayingcopy of the fairness opinion saying monies would basically be worth 80% moremonies would basically be worth 80% moremonies would basically be worth 80% more if they did what we said and six weeksif they did what we said and six weeksif they did what we said and six weeks later they did what we said so that'slater they did what we said so that'slater they did what we said so that's activism at least an early form ofactivism at least an early form ofactivism at least an early form of activism with that kind of under ouractivism with that kind of under ouractivism with that kind of under our belt we had a little more credibilitybelt we had a little more credibilitybelt we had a little more credibility and now we started to take things andand now we started to take things andand now we started to take things and stakes instakes instakes in companies uh the media would paycompanies uh the media would paycompanies uh the media would pay attention so the media became a kind ofattention so the media became a kind ofattention so the media became a kind of an important partner and uh you knowan important partner and uh you knowan important partner and uh you know some combination of Shame embarrassmentsome combination of Shame embarrassmentsome combination of Shame embarrassment and opportunityand opportunityand opportunity uh motivated management teams to do theuh motivated management teams to do theuh motivated management teams to do the right thing and then you know beyondright thing and then you know beyondright thing and then you know beyond that uh there's certain steps you canthat uh there's certain steps you canthat uh there's certain steps you can take if management is Rec Cal trint andtake if management is Rec Cal trint andtake if management is Rec Cal trint and the shareholders are on your side butthe shareholders are on your side butthe shareholders are on your side but it's a bit like running for office
it's a bit like running for officeit's a bit like running for office you've got to get all the constituentsyou've got to get all the constituentsyou've got to get all the constituents to support you and your ideas and ifto support you and your ideas and ifto support you and your ideas and if they support you in your ideas you canthey support you in your ideas you canthey support you in your ideas you can overthrow if you will the board of aoverthrow if you will the board of aoverthrow if you will the board of a company you bring in new talent and thencompany you bring in new talent and thencompany you bring in new talent and then take over the management of a businesstake over the management of a businesstake over the management of a business and that's the most extreme form ofand that's the most extreme form ofand that's the most extreme form of activism so that's kind of the earlyactivism so that's kind of the earlyactivism so that's kind of the early days what we did and a lot of the earlydays what we did and a lot of the earlydays what we did and a lot of the early things that we did were um you know callthings that we did were um you know callthings that we did were um you know call it what we call sort of like Investmentit what we call sort of like Investmentit what we call sort of like Investment Banking activism where we'd go in andBanking activism where we'd go in andBanking activism where we'd go in and recommend something a good investmentrecommend something a good investmentrecommend something a good investment bank would have recommended and if theybank would have recommended and if theybank would have recommended and if they do it we make a bunch of money and thendo it we make a bunch of money and thendo it we make a bunch of money and then we moved on to the next one and then wewe moved on to the next one and then wewe moved on to the next one and then we realized an investment in a companyrealized an investment in a companyrealized an investment in a company called General growth uh was the firstcalled General growth uh was the firstcalled General growth uh was the first time we took a board seat on a companytime we took a board seat on a companytime we took a board seat on a company and there was some Financialand there was some Financialand there was some Financial restructuring and also an opportunity torestructuring and also an opportunity to
restructuring and also an opportunity to improve the operations of the businessimprove the operations of the businessimprove the operations of the business sit on the board of a company and thatsit on the board of a company and thatsit on the board of a company and that was one of the the best investments wewas one of the the best investments wewas one of the the best investments we ever made and we said okay we can doever made and we said okay we can doever made and we said okay we can do more than just be an outside themore than just be an outside themore than just be an outside the boardroom investor and we can getboardroom investor and we can getboardroom investor and we can get involved in helping select the rightinvolved in helping select the rightinvolved in helping select the right management teams and helping guide themanagement teams and helping guide themanagement teams and helping guide the right management teams and then we'veright management teams and then we'veright management teams and then we've done that over years uh and then I woulddone that over years uh and then I woulddone that over years uh and then I would say the last seven years we haven't hadsay the last seven years we haven't hadsay the last seven years we haven't had to be an activist an activist isto be an activist an activist isto be an activist an activist is generally someone who's outside banginggenerally someone who's outside banginggenerally someone who's outside banging on the door trying to get in we're sorton the door trying to get in we're sorton the door trying to get in we're sort of built enough credibility that theyof built enough credibility that theyof built enough credibility that they open the door and they say hey Bill whatopen the door and they say hey Bill whatopen the door and they say hey Bill what ideas do you have so welcome would youideas do you have so welcome would youideas do you have so welcome would you like to join the board we're treatedlike to join the board we're treatedlike to join the board we're treated differently today than we were in thedifferently today than we were in thedifferently today than we were in the beginning and that uh um is I would saybeginning and that uh um is I would saybeginning and that uh um is I would say some people might just call it being ansome people might just call it being ansome people might just call it being an Engaged owner that by the way that's the
Engaged owner that by the way that's theEngaged owner that by the way that's the way investing was done in the Andrewway investing was done in the Andrewway investing was done in the Andrew Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150 years ago right you had these iconicyears ago right you had these iconicyears ago right you had these iconic Business Leaders that would own 20% ofBusiness Leaders that would own 20% ofBusiness Leaders that would own 20% of us steel and when things would go wrongus steel and when things would go wrongus steel and when things would go wrong they'd replace the board and thethey'd replace the board and thethey'd replace the board and the management and fix them and over time wemanagement and fix them and over time wemanagement and fix them and over time we went to a world where mutual funds werewent to a world where mutual funds werewent to a world where mutual funds were created like in the 1920s 30s indexcreated like in the 1920s 30s indexcreated like in the 1920s 30s index funds uh with Vanguard and others andfunds uh with Vanguard and others andfunds uh with Vanguard and others and that all these controlling shareholdersthat all these controlling shareholdersthat all these controlling shareholders would you know kind of gave their stockwould you know kind of gave their stockwould you know kind of gave their stock to society or their children andto society or their children andto society or their children and multiple generations and there were nomultiple generations and there were nomultiple generations and there were no longer kind of controlling owners oflonger kind of controlling owners oflonger kind of controlling owners of businesses or very few and that led tobusinesses or very few and that led tobusinesses or very few and that led to underperformance and the opportunity forunderperformance and the opportunity forunderperformance and the opportunity for for activists over time and whatfor activists over time and whatfor activists over time and what activism has done I think we've helpedactivism has done I think we've helpedactivism has done I think we've helped lead this movement is it restored kindlead this movement is it restored kindlead this movement is it restored kind of the balance of power between theof the balance of power between theof the balance of power between the owners of the business and the
owners of the business and theowners of the business and the managements of the company and that'smanagements of the company and that'smanagements of the company and that's been a very good thing for thebeen a very good thing for thebeen a very good thing for the performance of the of the US Stockperformance of the of the US Stockperformance of the of the US Stock Market actually so the owners meaningMarket actually so the owners meaningMarket actually so the owners meaning the shareholders yes and so there's athe shareholders yes and so there's athe shareholders yes and so there's a more direct channel of communicationmore direct channel of communicationmore direct channel of communication with with activists investing betweenwith with activists investing betweenwith with activists investing between the shareholders and the people runningthe shareholders and the people runningthe shareholders and the people running the company yes so activists generallythe company yes so activists generallythe company yes so activists generally never own more than five or 10% of anever own more than five or 10% of anever own more than five or 10% of a business so they don't have control sobusiness so they don't have control sobusiness so they don't have control so the way they get influence is they havethe way they get influence is they havethe way they get influence is they have to convince the other you know M theyto convince the other you know M theyto convince the other you know M they have to get to sort of a majority of thehave to get to sort of a majority of thehave to get to sort of a majority of the other shareholders to support them andother shareholders to support them andother shareholders to support them and if they can get that kind of supportif they can get that kind of supportif they can get that kind of support they can behave almost like athey can behave almost like athey can behave almost like a controlling shareholder and that's howcontrolling shareholder and that's howcontrolling shareholder and that's how it works so the running of a compan isit works so the running of a compan isit works so the running of a compan is uh according to bill akman is moreuh according to bill akman is moreuh according to bill akman is more democratic now it is it is but you needdemocratic now it is it is but you needdemocratic now it is it is but you need some thought leaders so activists are
some thought leaders so activists aresome thought leaders so activists are kind of thought leaders because they cankind of thought leaders because they cankind of thought leaders because they can spend the time and the money uh you knowspend the time and the money uh you knowspend the time and the money uh you know a retail investor that owns a th sharesa retail investor that owns a th sharesa retail investor that owns a th shares is doesn't have the the the resources ofis doesn't have the the the resources ofis doesn't have the the the resources of the time they got a dat job whereas anthe time they got a dat job whereas anthe time they got a dat job whereas an activist day job is finding the handfulactivist day job is finding the handfulactivist day job is finding the handful of things where there areof things where there areof things where there are opportunities so on average is it goodopportunities so on average is it goodopportunities so on average is it good to have such an Engaged powerfulto have such an Engaged powerfulto have such an Engaged powerful influentialinfluentialinfluential investor helping control direct theinvestor helping control direct theinvestor helping control direct the direction of a company it depends whodirection of a company it depends whodirection of a company it depends who that investor is but generally I thinkthat investor is but generally I thinkthat investor is but generally I think it's a good thing uh and that's why youit's a good thing uh and that's why youit's a good thing uh and that's why you know one of the problems with being CEOknow one of the problems with being CEOknow one of the problems with being CEO of a company today and having a veryof a company today and having a veryof a company today and having a very Diversified shareholder base is the kindDiversified shareholder base is the kindDiversified shareholder base is the kind of short-term long-term balance and youof short-term long-term balance and youof short-term long-term balance and you have investors that have all differenthave investors that have all differenthave investors that have all different interests in terms of what they want tointerests in terms of what they want tointerests in terms of what they want to achieve and when they want it achievedachieve and when they want it achievedachieve and when they want it achieved and uh CEO of a new company hasn't a new
and uh CEO of a new company hasn't a newand uh CEO of a new company hasn't a new CEO of an old company let's say hasn'tCEO of an old company let's say hasn'tCEO of an old company let's say hasn't had the chance to develop Thehad the chance to develop Thehad the chance to develop The credibility uh to make uh the kind ofcredibility uh to make uh the kind ofcredibility uh to make uh the kind of longer term decisions and can be stucklonger term decisions and can be stucklonger term decisions and can be stuck in a cycle of being judged on ain a cycle of being judged on ain a cycle of being judged on a quarterly basis and a business the bestquarterly basis and a business the bestquarterly basis and a business the best businesses are forever assets andbusinesses are forever assets andbusinesses are forever assets and decisions you make now have impact 3decisions you make now have impact 3decisions you make now have impact 3 four or 5 years from now in order tofour or 5 years from now in order tofour or 5 years from now in order to make and sometimes there are decisionsmake and sometimes there are decisionsmake and sometimes there are decisions we make that have the effect of ofwe make that have the effect of ofwe make that have the effect of of reducing the earnings of a company inreducing the earnings of a company inreducing the earnings of a company in the short term because in the long termthe short term because in the long termthe short term because in the long term it's going to make the business muchit's going to make the business muchit's going to make the business much more valuable uh but it sometimes it'smore valuable uh but it sometimes it'smore valuable uh but it sometimes it's hard to have that kind of credibilityhard to have that kind of credibilityhard to have that kind of credibility when you're a new CEO of a company sowhen you're a new CEO of a company sowhen you're a new CEO of a company so when you have a majorwhen you have a majorwhen you have a major owner uh that's respected by otherowner uh that's respected by otherowner uh that's respected by other shareholders sitting on the board sayingshareholders sitting on the board sayingshareholders sitting on the board saying hey the CEO is doing the right thing andhey the CEO is doing the right thing andhey the CEO is doing the right thing and making this expensive investment in amaking this expensive investment in a
making this expensive investment in a new Factory we're spending more money onnew Factory we're spending more money onnew Factory we're spending more money on R&D uh because we're developingR&D uh because we're developingR&D uh because we're developing something that's going to pay off oversomething that's going to pay off oversomething that's going to pay off over time that large owner on the board uhtime that large owner on the board uhtime that large owner on the board uh can help buy the time necessary forcan help buy the time necessary forcan help buy the time necessary for management to behave in a longer termmanagement to behave in a longer termmanagement to behave in a longer term way and that's I think good for all theway and that's I think good for all theway and that's I think good for all the shareholders so that's the good storyshareholders so that's the good storyshareholders so that's the good story but can it get bad can you have a a CEObut can it get bad can you have a a CEObut can it get bad can you have a a CEO who is a Visionary and sees thewho is a Visionary and sees thewho is a Visionary and sees the long-term future of a company and anlong-term future of a company and anlong-term future of a company and an investor come in and have very selfishinvestor come in and have very selfishinvestor come in and have very selfish interest in just making more money ininterest in just making more money ininterest in just making more money in the short term and therefore destroy andthe short term and therefore destroy andthe short term and therefore destroy and manipulate the opinions of themanipulate the opinions of themanipulate the opinions of the shareholders and other people on theshareholders and other people on theshareholders and other people on the board in order to syn theboard in order to syn theboard in order to syn the company maybe increase the increase thecompany maybe increase the increase thecompany maybe increase the increase the price but uh destroy the possibility ofprice but uh destroy the possibility ofprice but uh destroy the possibility of long-term value could theoreticallylong-term value could theoreticallylong-term value could theoretically happen but again the the activist inhappen but again the the activist inhappen but again the the activist in your example jally doesn't own a lot ofyour example jally doesn't own a lot of
your example jally doesn't own a lot of stock uh the shareholder bases today thestock uh the shareholder bases today thestock uh the shareholder bases today the biggest shareholders are these indexbiggest shareholders are these indexbiggest shareholders are these index funds that are forever right the Blackfunds that are forever right the Blackfunds that are forever right the Black Rock Vanguard State Street theirRock Vanguard State Street theirRock Vanguard State Street their ownership Stakes are just at this pointownership Stakes are just at this pointownership Stakes are just at this point only growing because of the inflows ofonly growing because of the inflows ofonly growing because of the inflows of capital they have from shareholders socapital they have from shareholders socapital they have from shareholders so they have to think or they should thinkthey have to think or they should thinkthey have to think or they should think very longterm and they're going to bevery longterm and they're going to bevery longterm and they're going to be very skeptical of someone coming in withvery skeptical of someone coming in withvery skeptical of someone coming in with a short-term idea that drives the stocka short-term idea that drives the stocka short-term idea that drives the stock price up you know in the next six monthsprice up you know in the next six monthsprice up you know in the next six months but impairs the company's long-termbut impairs the company's long-termbut impairs the company's long-term ability to compete and basically thatability to compete and basically thatability to compete and basically that ownership group uh prevents this kind ofownership group uh prevents this kind ofownership group uh prevents this kind of activity from really happening so peopleactivity from really happening so peopleactivity from really happening so people are generally skeptical of short-termare generally skeptical of short-termare generally skeptical of short-term activists in investors yes they're andactivists in investors yes they're andactivists in investors yes they're and they're very few I don't really know anythey're very few I don't really know anythey're very few I don't really know any short-term activist investors that's ashort-term activist investors that's ashort-term activist investors that's a not ones withnot ones withnot ones with credibility you mentioned uh General
credibility you mentioned uh Generalcredibility you mentioned uh General growth I read somewhere called arguablygrowth I read somewhere called arguablygrowth I read somewhere called arguably one of the best hedge fund trades of allone of the best hedge fund trades of allone of the best hedge fund trades of all time so uh I guess it went from $60time so uh I guess it went from $60time so uh I guess it went from $60 million to over three billion it was itmillion to over three billion it was itmillion to over three billion it was it was a good one all right but it wasn't awas a good one all right but it wasn't awas a good one all right but it wasn't a trade I wouldn't describe it as a tradetrade I wouldn't describe it as a tradetrade I wouldn't describe it as a trade a trade is something you buy and youa trade is something you buy and youa trade is something you buy and you flip this is something where we made theflip this is something where we made theflip this is something where we made the investment initially in November ofinvestment initially in November ofinvestment initially in November of 2008 uh and uh we still own a company we2008 uh and uh we still own a company we2008 uh and uh we still own a company we spun off of General growth and it's nowspun off of General growth and it's nowspun off of General growth and it's now 15 years later so can can you describe15 years later so can can you describe15 years later so can can you describe what went into making that decision towhat went into making that decision towhat went into making that decision to actually increasing the value of theactually increasing the value of theactually increasing the value of the company sure so this was at the time ofcompany sure so this was at the time ofcompany sure so this was at the time of the financial crisis uh Circa Novemberthe financial crisis uh Circa Novemberthe financial crisis uh Circa November 2008 what real estate's always been a2008 what real estate's always been a2008 what real estate's always been a kind of sector that I've been interestedkind of sector that I've been interestedkind of sector that I've been interested in I began my career in the real estatein I began my career in the real estatein I began my career in the real estate business working for my dad actually uhbusiness working for my dad actually uhbusiness working for my dad actually uh ranging mortgage Is For Real Estate
ranging mortgage Is For Real Estateranging mortgage Is For Real Estate developers so I I have uh kind of deepdevelopers so I I have uh kind of deepdevelopers so I I have uh kind of deep deep ties and interest in the businessdeep ties and interest in the businessdeep ties and interest in the business and general growth was the secondand general growth was the secondand general growth was the second largest shopping mall company in thelargest shopping mall company in thelargest shopping mall company in the country uh Simon properties many peoplecountry uh Simon properties many peoplecountry uh Simon properties many people have heard of General growth was numberhave heard of General growth was numberhave heard of General growth was number two they own some of the best malls intwo they own some of the best malls intwo they own some of the best malls in the country and at that time peoplethe country and at that time peoplethe country and at that time people thought of shopping malls as these non-dthought of shopping malls as these non-dthought of shopping malls as these non-d disruptable things again we talk aboutdisruptable things again we talk aboutdisruptable things again we talk about disruption malls have been disrupted indisruption malls have been disrupted indisruption malls have been disrupted in many ways uh and general growth stock uhmany ways uh and general growth stock uhmany ways uh and general growth stock uh the general growth the company the CFOthe general growth the company the CFOthe general growth the company the CFO in particular was very aggressive in thein particular was very aggressive in thein particular was very aggressive in the way that he borrowed money and heway that he borrowed money and heway that he borrowed money and he borrowed money from a kind of Wallborrowed money from a kind of Wallborrowed money from a kind of Wall Street uh not long-term uh mortgages butStreet uh not long-term uh mortgages butStreet uh not long-term uh mortgages but generally relatively short-termgenerally relatively short-termgenerally relatively short-term mortgages he was pretty aggressive asmortgages he was pretty aggressive asmortgages he was pretty aggressive as the value went up he would borrow morethe value went up he would borrow morethe value went up he would borrow more and more against the assets and thatand more against the assets and thatand more against the assets and that helped the shortterm results of the
helped the shortterm results of thehelped the shortterm results of the business the problem was during thebusiness the problem was during thebusiness the problem was during the financial crisis the the market forfinancial crisis the the market forfinancial crisis the the market for what's called cnbs commercial mortgagewhat's called cnbs commercial mortgagewhat's called cnbs commercial mortgage back Securities basically shut and theback Securities basically shut and theback Securities basically shut and the company because its debt was relativelycompany because its debt was relativelycompany because its debt was relatively short-term had a lot of big maturitiesshort-term had a lot of big maturitiesshort-term had a lot of big maturities coming up that they had no ability tocoming up that they had no ability tocoming up that they had no ability to refinance and the market said oh my Godrefinance and the market said oh my Godrefinance and the market said oh my God the lenders are going to foreclose andthe lenders are going to foreclose andthe lenders are going to foreclose and the shareholders going to get wiped thethe shareholders going to get wiped thethe shareholders going to get wiped the company's going to go bankrupt theycompany's going to go bankrupt theycompany's going to go bankrupt they going to get wiped out the stock wentgoing to get wiped out the stock wentgoing to get wiped out the stock went from $63 a share to 34 so and there wasfrom $63 a share to 34 so and there wasfrom $63 a share to 34 so and there was a family the buck bound family owned Ia family the buck bound family owned Ia family the buck bound family owned I think about 25% of the company and thethink about 25% of the company and thethink about 25% of the company and the they had a $5 billion five billion stockthey had a $5 billion five billion stockthey had a $5 billion five billion stock that was worth 25 million or somethingthat was worth 25 million or somethingthat was worth 25 million or something by the time we bought a stake in theby the time we bought a stake in theby the time we bought a stake in the business and what interested me was uh Ibusiness and what interested me was uh Ibusiness and what interested me was uh I thought the assets were worththought the assets were worththought the assets were worth substantially more than the liabilitiessubstantially more than the liabilities
substantially more than the liabilities the company had 27 billion of debt andthe company had 27 billion of debt andthe company had 27 billion of debt and had $100 million value of the equityhad $100 million value of the equityhad $100 million value of the equity down from like 20 billion okay and onedown from like 20 billion okay and onedown from like 20 billion okay and one that you know sort of an interestingthat you know sort of an interestingthat you know sort of an interesting place to start with a stock downplace to start with a stock downplace to start with a stock down 99% but the fundamental drivers the mall99% but the fundamental drivers the mall99% but the fundamental drivers the mall business are occupancy how occupied arebusiness are occupancy how occupied arebusiness are occupancy how occupied are the malls occupancy was up year on-yearthe malls occupancy was up year on-yearthe malls occupancy was up year on-year between 07 and 08 interestingly netbetween 07 and 08 interestingly netbetween 07 and 08 interestingly net operating income which is kind of aoperating income which is kind of aoperating income which is kind of a measure of cash flow from the malls thatmeasure of cash flow from the malls thatmeasure of cash flow from the malls that was up year on-ear so of the underlyingwas up year on-ear so of the underlyingwas up year on-ear so of the underlying fundamentals were doing fine the onlyfundamentals were doing fine the onlyfundamentals were doing fine the only problem they had is they had billions ofproblem they had is they had billions ofproblem they had is they had billions of dollars of debt that they had to repaydollars of debt that they had to repaydollars of debt that they had to repay they couldn't repay and if you kind ofthey couldn't repay and if you kind ofthey couldn't repay and if you kind of examine the bankruptcy code um that it'sexamine the bankruptcy code um that it'sexamine the bankruptcy code um that it's precisely designed for a situation likeprecisely designed for a situation likeprecisely designed for a situation like this where it's kind of this restingthis where it's kind of this restingthis where it's kind of this resting place you can go uh to kind of re re uhplace you can go uh to kind of re re uhplace you can go uh to kind of re re uh restructure your business now therestructure your business now therestructure your business now the problem was that every other company
problem was that every other companyproblem was that every other company that had gone bankrupt the shareholdersthat had gone bankrupt the shareholdersthat had gone bankrupt the shareholders got wiped out and so so the marketgot wiped out and so so the marketgot wiped out and so so the market seeing every previous example the sholdsseeing every previous example the sholdsseeing every previous example the sholds get wiped out the assumption is theget wiped out the assumption is theget wiped out the assumption is the stock is going to go to zero that's notstock is going to go to zero that's notstock is going to go to zero that's not what the bankruptcy code says what thewhat the bankruptcy code says what thewhat the bankruptcy code says what the bankruptcy bankruptcy code says is thatbankruptcy bankruptcy code says is thatbankruptcy bankruptcy code says is that the value gets apportioned based onthe value gets apportioned based onthe value gets apportioned based on value and if you could prove to a judgevalue and if you could prove to a judgevalue and if you could prove to a judge that there was the assets worth morethat there was the assets worth morethat there was the assets worth more than the liabilities then thethan the liabilities then thethan the liabilities then the shareholders actually get to keep theirshareholders actually get to keep theirshareholders actually get to keep their investment in theinvestment in theinvestment in the company and that was the bet we made andcompany and that was the bet we made andcompany and that was the bet we made and so we stepped into the market we boughtso we stepped into the market we boughtso we stepped into the market we bought 25% of the company in the open market25% of the company in the open market25% of the company in the open market for we had to pay up it started at at 34for we had to pay up it started at at 34for we had to pay up it started at at 34 I think there were 300 million shares soI think there were 300 million shares soI think there were 300 million shares so it was at a $100 million value by theit was at a $100 million value by theit was at a $100 million value by the time we were done we paid an average oftime we were done we paid an average oftime we were done we paid an average of we paid 60 million for 25% of thewe paid 60 million for 25% of thewe paid 60 million for 25% of the business so about $240 million for the
business so about $240 million for thebusiness so about $240 million for the equity of the company and then we had toequity of the company and then we had toequity of the company and then we had to get on the board to convince theget on the board to convince theget on the board to convince the director is the right thing to do anddirector is the right thing to do anddirector is the right thing to do and the board was in complete Panic didn'tthe board was in complete Panic didn'tthe board was in complete Panic didn't know what to do spending a ton of moneyknow what to do spending a ton of moneyknow what to do spending a ton of money ononon advisers and you know I was aadvisers and you know I was aadvisers and you know I was a shareholder activist you know four yearsshareholder activist you know four yearsshareholder activist you know four years into persing square and no one had anyinto persing square and no one had anyinto persing square and no one had any idea what we were doing they thought weidea what we were doing they thought weidea what we were doing they thought we were crazy every day stop every day we'were crazy every day stop every day we'were crazy every day stop every day we' go into the market and we'd buy thisgo into the market and we'd buy thisgo into the market and we'd buy this Penny Stock and we'd file what's calledPenny Stock and we'd file what's calledPenny Stock and we'd file what's called a 13d every 1% increase in our stake anda 13d every 1% increase in our stake anda 13d every 1% increase in our stake and people just thought we were crazy we'repeople just thought we were crazy we'repeople just thought we were crazy we're buying stock in a company that's goingbuying stock in a company that's goingbuying stock in a company that's going to go bankrupt Bill you're going to loseto go bankrupt Bill you're going to loseto go bankrupt Bill you're going to lose all your money you know run okay and Iall your money you know run okay and Iall your money you know run okay and I said well wait you know bankrupcy codesaid well wait you know bankrupcy codesaid well wait you know bankrupcy code says that there's more asset value thansays that there's more asset value thansays that there's more asset value than liabilities we should be fine and theliabilities we should be fine and theliabilities we should be fine and the key moment if you're looking for uh fun
key moment if you're looking for uh funkey moment if you're looking for uh fun moments is there's woman named Maddiemoments is there's woman named Maddiemoments is there's woman named Maddie Buck bound uh who was from the buckBuck bound uh who was from the buckBuck bound uh who was from the buck bound family and uh her cousin John wasbound family and uh her cousin John wasbound family and uh her cousin John was chairman of the board CEO of the companychairman of the board CEO of the companychairman of the board CEO of the company and I said as she calls me after weand I said as she calls me after weand I said as she calls me after we disclose our stake in the company she'sdisclose our stake in the company she'sdisclose our stake in the company she's like Billy Amman I'm really glad to seelike Billy Amman I'm really glad to seelike Billy Amman I'm really glad to see you here and I met her like I don'tyou here and I met her like I don'tyou here and I met her like I don't think it was a date but I kind of metthink it was a date but I kind of metthink it was a date but I kind of met her in a social context when I was likeher in a social context when I was likeher in a social context when I was like 25 or something and she said look I'm25 or something and she said look I'm25 or something and she said look I'm really glad to see you here and therereally glad to see you here and therereally glad to see you here and there anything I can do to help you call me Ianything I can do to help you call me Ianything I can do to help you call me I saidsaidsaid sure uh we kept trying to get on thesure uh we kept trying to get on thesure uh we kept trying to get on the board of the company they wouldn'tboard of the company they wouldn'tboard of the company they wouldn't invite us on couldn't really run a proxyinvite us on couldn't really run a proxyinvite us on couldn't really run a proxy contest that you know not with a companycontest that you know not with a companycontest that you know not with a company going bankrupt and their advisersgoing bankrupt and their advisersgoing bankrupt and their advisers actually were Goldman Sachs and they'reactually were Goldman Sachs and they'reactually were Goldman Sachs and they're like you don't want the fox in the henlike you don't want the fox in the henlike you don't want the fox in the hen house and they were listening to theirhouse and they were listening to their
house and they were listening to their advisors so I called Maddie up and Iadvisors so I called Maddie up and Iadvisors so I called Maddie up and I said Maddie I need to get on the boardsaid Maddie I need to get on the boardsaid Maddie I need to get on the board of the company to help and she says youof the company to help and she says youof the company to help and she says you know what I will call my cousin and I'llknow what I will call my cousin and I'llknow what I will call my cousin and I'll get itget itget it done uh like you know she calls back adone uh like you know she calls back adone uh like you know she calls back a few hours later you'll be going on tofew hours later you'll be going on tofew hours later you'll be going on to the board I don't know what she said tothe board I don't know what she said tothe board I don't know what she said to her but she was convincing next thingher but she was convincing next thingher but she was convincing next thing you know I'm invited to on the board ofyou know I'm invited to on the board ofyou know I'm invited to on the board of the company and the board is talkingthe company and the board is talkingthe company and the board is talking about the old Equity of General growthabout the old Equity of General growthabout the old Equity of General growth old Equity is what you talk about theold Equity is what you talk about theold Equity is what you talk about the shareholders are getting wiped out Ishareholders are getting wiped out Ishareholders are getting wiped out I said no no no this board represents thesaid no no no this board represents thesaid no no no this board represents the current Equity of the company and I'm acurrent Equity of the company and I'm acurrent Equity of the company and I'm a major shareholder John's a majormajor shareholder John's a majormajor shareholder John's a major shareholder there's plenty of assetshareholder there's plenty of assetshareholder there's plenty of asset value here this company should be ablevalue here this company should be ablevalue here this company should be able to rest be restructured for the benefitto rest be restructured for the benefitto rest be restructured for the benefit of shareholders and we let aof shareholders and we let aof shareholders and we let a restructuring for the benefit ofrestructuring for the benefit ofrestructuring for the benefit of shareholders and it took let's say uh
shareholders and it took let's say uhshareholders and it took let's say uh eight months and the company emergedeight months and the company emergedeight months and the company emerged from chapter 11 we made an incrementalfrom chapter 11 we made an incrementalfrom chapter 11 we made an incremental investment into theinvestment into theinvestment into the company and the shareholders kept thecompany and the shareholders kept thecompany and the shareholders kept the vast majority of their investment uh allvast majority of their investment uh allvast majority of their investment uh all the creditors got their you know facethe creditors got their you know facethe creditors got their you know face amount of their investment par plus a camount of their investment par plus a camount of their investment par plus a c crude interest and it was a greatcrude interest and it was a greatcrude interest and it was a great outcome all the employees kept theiroutcome all the employees kept theiroutcome all the employees kept their jobs the mall stayed open there was nojobs the mall stayed open there was nojobs the mall stayed open there was no liquidation the bankruptcy system workedliquidation the bankruptcy system workedliquidation the bankruptcy system worked the way it should uh you know I was inthe way it should uh you know I was inthe way it should uh you know I was in court you know all the time and thecourt you know all the time and thecourt you know all the time and the first uh meeting with the judge thefirst uh meeting with the judge thefirst uh meeting with the judge the judge is like look this would never havejudge is like look this would never havejudge is like look this would never have happened were it not for a financialhappened were it not for a financialhappened were it not for a financial crisis and once the judge said I knew wecrisis and once the judge said I knew wecrisis and once the judge said I knew we were going to be fine because thewere going to be fine because thewere going to be fine because the company really not done anythingcompany really not done anythingcompany really not done anything fundamentally wrong maybe a little toofundamentally wrong maybe a little toofundamentally wrong maybe a little too aggressive in how they borrowed moneyaggressive in how they borrowed moneyaggressive in how they borrowed money and uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 a
and uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 aand uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 a share and actually fun little anecdoteshare and actually fun little anecdoteshare and actually fun little anecdote um we made a lot of people a lot ofum we made a lot of people a lot ofum we made a lot of people a lot of money who follow us into it I got a lotmoney who follow us into it I got a lotmoney who follow us into it I got a lot of nice thank you notes which you get onof nice thank you notes which you get onof nice thank you notes which you get on occasion in this business believe it oroccasion in this business believe it oroccasion in this business believe it or not and then one day I get a voicemailnot and then one day I get a voicemailnot and then one day I get a voicemail this is when there was something calledthis is when there was something calledthis is when there was something called voicemail probably a few years latervoicemail probably a few years latervoicemail probably a few years later and it's a guy with a very thickand it's a guy with a very thickand it's a guy with a very thick Jamaican accent leaving a message forJamaican accent leaving a message forJamaican accent leaving a message for Bill Amman so you know I return all myBill Amman so you know I return all myBill Amman so you know I return all my calls call the guy back he's like hicalls call the guy back he's like hicalls call the guy back he's like hi it's Bill Amman I'm just returning yourit's Bill Amman I'm just returning yourit's Bill Amman I'm just returning your call he's oh Mrcall he's oh Mrcall he's oh Mr Amman uh thank you so much for callingAmman uh thank you so much for callingAmman uh thank you so much for calling me and I said oh how can I help he saysme and I said oh how can I help he saysme and I said oh how can I help he says I wanted to thank you I said what do youI wanted to thank you I said what do youI wanted to thank you I said what do you mean he said I saw you on CNBC you knowmean he said I saw you on CNBC you knowmean he said I saw you on CNBC you know a couple years ago and you were talkinga couple years ago and you were talkinga couple years ago and you were talking about this General growth and the stockabout this General growth and the stockabout this General growth and the stock I said where was the stock at the timeI said where was the stock at the timeI said where was the stock at the time he said it's 60 Cent or something like
he said it's 60 Cent or something likehe said it's 60 Cent or something like this and I bought a lot ofthis and I bought a lot ofthis and I bought a lot of stock and I'm like well how much did youstock and I'm like well how much did youstock and I'm like well how much did you invest oh I invest all of my money ininvest oh I invest all of my money ininvest oh I invest all of my money in the company and he was a New York Citythe company and he was a New York Citythe company and he was a New York City Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000 or something like this at 60 cents aor something like this at 60 cents aor something like this at 60 cents a share and he was still holding it and heshare and he was still holding it and heshare and he was still holding it and he went into retirement and he made youwent into retirement and he made youwent into retirement and he made you know 50 times his money and uh yeahknow 50 times his money and uh yeahknow 50 times his money and uh yeah those are the moments that you feelthose are the moments that you feelthose are the moments that you feel pretty good about investing well givepretty good about investing well givepretty good about investing well give you confidence through that went toyou confidence through that went toyou confidence through that went to Penny Stock and I'm sure you werePenny Stock and I'm sure you werePenny Stock and I'm sure you were getting a lot of naysay and peoplegetting a lot of naysay and peoplegetting a lot of naysay and people saying that this is crazy it's the samesaying that this is crazy it's the samesaying that this is crazy it's the same thing you just do the work like we got athing you just do the work like we got athing you just do the work like we got a lot of push back from our investorslot of push back from our investorslot of push back from our investors actually because we had never investedactually because we had never investedactually because we had never invested in a bankrupt company before it's ain a bankrupt company before it's ain a bankrupt company before it's a field called distressed investing andfield called distressed investing andfield called distressed investing and they're dedicated uh distressedthey're dedicated uh distressedthey're dedicated uh distressed investors and we weren't considered one
investors and we weren't considered oneinvestors and we weren't considered one of them so Bill what are you doing youof them so Bill what are you doing youof them so Bill what are you doing you don't know anything about distresseddon't know anything about distresseddon't know anything about distressed investing you don't know anything aboutinvesting you don't know anything aboutinvesting you don't know anything about bankruptcybankruptcybankruptcy investing um but I can read I can youinvesting um but I can read I can youinvesting um but I can read I can you learned and I learned and it sometimeslearned and I learned and it sometimeslearned and I learned and it sometimes it's very helpful not to be ait's very helpful not to be ait's very helpful not to be a practitioner an expert in somethingpractitioner an expert in somethingpractitioner an expert in something because you get used to the conventionalbecause you get used to the conventionalbecause you get used to the conventional wisdom and so we just you knowwisdom and so we just you knowwisdom and so we just you know abstractly read the uh step back andabstractly read the uh step back andabstractly read the uh step back and look at the facts and and it was just alook at the facts and and it was just alook at the facts and and it was just a really interesting setup for uh one ofreally interesting setup for uh one ofreally interesting setup for uh one of the best investments we ever made howthe best investments we ever made howthe best investments we ever made how hard is it to learn some of the legalhard is it to learn some of the legalhard is it to learn some of the legal aspects of this like you mentionedaspects of this like you mentionedaspects of this like you mentioned bankruptcy code like I imagine it's verybankruptcy code like I imagine it's verybankruptcy code like I imagine it's very sort of dense language and dense ideassort of dense language and dense ideassort of dense language and dense ideas and the loopholes and all that kind ofand the loopholes and all that kind ofand the loopholes and all that kind of stuff like if you're just stepping instuff like if you're just stepping instuff like if you're just stepping in and you've never done distressedand you've never done distressedand you've never done distressed investing how hard is it to figure outinvesting how hard is it to figure outinvesting how hard is it to figure out it's not that hard no it's not that hard
it's not that hard no it's not that hardit's not that hard no it's not that hard okay me I literally read a book onokay me I literally read a book onokay me I literally read a book on distress investing okay Ben Branch ordistress investing okay Ben Branch ordistress investing okay Ben Branch or something something on distressed inestsomething something on distressed inestsomething something on distressed inest so you were able to pick up theso you were able to pick up theso you were able to pick up the intuition from that just all the uh theintuition from that just all the uh theintuition from that just all the uh the basic skills involved the basic facts tobasic skills involved the basic facts tobasic skills involved the basic facts to know all that kind of stuff most of theknow all that kind of stuff most of theknow all that kind of stuff most of the world's knowledge has already beenworld's knowledge has already beenworld's knowledge has already been written somewhere you just got to readwritten somewhere you just got to readwritten somewhere you just got to read the right booksthe right booksthe right books and uh also had greatand uh also had greatand uh also had great lawyers uh you know built up some greatlawyers uh you know built up some greatlawyers uh you know built up some great relationships we we work with svin andrelationships we we work with svin andrelationships we we work with svin and Cromwell and the lawyer there named JoeCromwell and the lawyer there named JoeCromwell and the lawyer there named Joe Shanker who I met earlier in my careerShanker who I met earlier in my careerShanker who I met earlier in my career persan square is actually my second actpersan square is actually my second actpersan square is actually my second act in the hedge fund business I started ain the hedge fund business I started ain the hedge fund business I started a fund called Gotham Partners when I wasfund called Gotham Partners when I wasfund called Gotham Partners when I was 26 one of my early Investments was a26 one of my early Investments was a26 one of my early Investments was a company called Rockefeller Centercompany called Rockefeller Centercompany called Rockefeller Center properties that was heading forproperties that was heading forproperties that was heading for bankruptcy and uh the lawyer on thebankruptcy and uh the lawyer on thebankruptcy and uh the lawyer on the other side representing Goldman Sachs
other side representing Goldman Sachsother side representing Goldman Sachs was a guy named Joe Shanker so he waswas a guy named Joe Shanker so he waswas a guy named Joe Shanker so he was like an obvious phone call because hadlike an obvious phone call because hadlike an obvious phone call because had yet another real estate State bankruptcyyet another real estate State bankruptcyyet another real estate State bankruptcy in that one we we did very well but Iin that one we we did very well but Iin that one we we did very well but I missed the big opportunity and uh I I Imissed the big opportunity and uh I I Imissed the big opportunity and uh I I I suffered severe psychological torturesuffered severe psychological torturesuffered severe psychological torture every time I walked by Rock pH Centerevery time I walked by Rock pH Centerevery time I walked by Rock pH Center because we could have made we knew morebecause we could have made we knew morebecause we could have made we knew more about that property anyone else but Iabout that property anyone else but Iabout that property anyone else but I knew less about deal making and didn'tknew less about deal making and didn'tknew less about deal making and didn't have the resources and I was 28 yearshave the resources and I was 28 yearshave the resources and I was 28 years old orold orold or 27 um and they hired a better lawyer27 um and they hired a better lawyer27 um and they hired a better lawyer than we did and uh they outsmarted us onthan we did and uh they outsmarted us onthan we did and uh they outsmarted us on that one in a way so I said okay I'mthat one in a way so I said okay I'mthat one in a way so I said okay I'm going to go hire this guy the next timegoing to go hire this guy the next timegoing to go hire this guy the next time around so okay well well we'll probablyaround so okay well well we'll probablyaround so okay well well we'll probably talk about Rockefeller Center and sometalk about Rockefeller Center and sometalk about Rockefeller Center and some failures uh but first he said fox in thefailures uh but first he said fox in thefailures uh but first he said fox in the hen housee yes something that the boardhen housee yes something that the boardhen housee yes something that the board and the chairman were worried about whyand the chairman were worried about whyand the chairman were worried about why would they call you a fox so you you
would they call you a fox so you youwould they call you a fox so you you keep saying activist investing is uhkeep saying activist investing is uhkeep saying activist investing is uh there's nothing to worry about it'sthere's nothing to worry about it'sthere's nothing to worry about it's always good sure mostly good but youalways good sure mostly good but youalways good sure mostly good but you know that expression applied in thisknow that expression applied in thisknow that expression applied in this context you know they were still worriedcontext you know they were still worriedcontext you know they were still worried about that sure and so I mean there's aabout that sure and so I mean there's aabout that sure and so I mean there's a million questions here but first of allmillion questions here but first of allmillion questions here but first of all what does the process of getting on thewhat does the process of getting on thewhat does the process of getting on the board look like so a board can alwaysboard look like so a board can alwaysboard look like so a board can always admit a member at any time in theiradmit a member at any time in theiradmit a member at any time in their discretion for a US company um you thatdiscretion for a US company um you thatdiscretion for a US company um you that maybe there's some jurisdiction wheremaybe there's some jurisdiction wheremaybe there's some jurisdiction where you need a shareholder vote but in mostyou need a shareholder vote but in mostyou need a shareholder vote but in most cases a board can vote on any directorcases a board can vote on any directorcases a board can vote on any director that they want if the board doesn'tthat they want if the board doesn'tthat they want if the board doesn't invite you to the party you have toinvite you to the party you have toinvite you to the party you have to apply to be a member in effect and thatapply to be a member in effect and thatapply to be a member in effect and that process is called um you know basicallyprocess is called um you know basicallyprocess is called um you know basically is this the process of uh ultimatelyis this the process of uh ultimatelyis this the process of uh ultimately running a uh a slate for a meeting whererunning a uh a slate for a meeting whererunning a uh a slate for a meeting where you propose a number every anyyou propose a number every any
you propose a number every any shareholder can propose to be on a boardshareholder can propose to be on a boardshareholder can propose to be on a board of a company if they own one share ofof a company if they own one share ofof a company if they own one share of stock uh in the business and uh gettingstock uh in the business and uh gettingstock uh in the business and uh getting your name in the company's uh you knowyour name in the company's uh you knowyour name in the company's uh you know the materials they sent to shareholdersthe materials they sent to shareholdersthe materials they sent to shareholders those rules were written in a way thatthose rules were written in a way thatthose rules were written in a way that were very unfavorable and very difficultwere very unfavorable and very difficultwere very unfavorable and very difficult to get in the door those rules have beento get in the door those rules have beento get in the door those rules have been changed very recently uh where thechanged very recently uh where thechanged very recently uh where the company now has to include a candidatecompany now has to include a candidatecompany now has to include a candidate really all the candidates in thereally all the candidates in thereally all the candidates in the materials they send to shareholders somaterials they send to shareholders somaterials they send to shareholders so the shareholders pick the best ones whenthe shareholders pick the best ones whenthe shareholders pick the best ones when we applied we applied when we ran proxywe applied we applied when we ran proxywe applied we applied when we ran proxy contests in the past that was not thecontests in the past that was not thecontests in the past that was not the case and so you have to spend a lot ofcase and so you have to spend a lot ofcase and so you have to spend a lot of money mostly mailing fees and all kindsmoney mostly mailing fees and all kindsmoney mostly mailing fees and all kinds of other legal and other expenses to toof other legal and other expenses to toof other legal and other expenses to to let everyone know you're running likelet everyone know you're running likelet everyone know you're running like running a political campaign and thenrunning a political campaign and thenrunning a political campaign and then you got to run around and meet with theyou got to run around and meet with the
you got to run around and meet with the big shareholders you know fly around thebig shareholders you know fly around thebig shareholders you know fly around the country explain your case to them andcountry explain your case to them andcountry explain your case to them and then there's uh a shareholder meetingthen there's uh a shareholder meetingthen there's uh a shareholder meeting and if you get a majority of the votesand if you get a majority of the votesand if you get a majority of the votes you getyou getyou get on uh what's this proxy contest SLon uh what's this proxy contest SLon uh what's this proxy contest SL battle idea what's what's what's battlebattle idea what's what's what's battlebattle idea what's what's what's battle when they don't want you go okay and awhen they don't want you go okay and awhen they don't want you go okay and a lot of that has to do with I would saylot of that has to do with I would saylot of that has to do with I would say Pride normal human kind of stuff youPride normal human kind of stuff youPride normal human kind of stuff you know a lot of times a board of anknow a lot of times a board of anknow a lot of times a board of an underperforming company doesn't want tounderperforming company doesn't want tounderperforming company doesn't want to admit that they've underperformed andadmit that they've underperformed andadmit that they've underperformed and Boards of directors 20 years ago weBoards of directors 20 years ago weBoards of directors 20 years ago we started persan Square were pretty cushystarted persan Square were pretty cushystarted persan Square were pretty cushy jobs sit on a board of a company uh youjobs sit on a board of a company uh youjobs sit on a board of a company uh you play golf with the CEO you know at niceplay golf with the CEO you know at niceplay golf with the CEO you know at nice golf courses you make a few hundredgolf courses you make a few hundredgolf courses you make a few hundred thousand a year to go to fourthousand a year to go to fourthousand a year to go to four meetings uh it was kind of a rubbermeetings uh it was kind of a rubbermeetings uh it was kind of a rubber stamp world where boards you know at thestamp world where boards you know at thestamp world where boards you know at the end of the day uh they the CEO reallyend of the day uh they the CEO reallyend of the day uh they the CEO really ran the
ran theran the show uh once shareholders could actuallyshow uh once shareholders could actuallyshow uh once shareholders could actually dislodge board members and they coulddislodge board members and they coulddislodge board members and they could lose their seats and that's really thelose their seats and that's really thelose their seats and that's really the the rise of shareholder activism boardthe rise of shareholder activism boardthe rise of shareholder activism board started taking their responsibilitiesstarted taking their responsibilitiesstarted taking their responsibilities much more seriously because directorsmuch more seriously because directorsmuch more seriously because directors are typically you know there many casesare typically you know there many casesare typically you know there many cases they're retired CEOs this is kind of howthey're retired CEOs this is kind of howthey're retired CEOs this is kind of how they're making a living in the laterthey're making a living in the laterthey're making a living in the later part of their career they sit on fourpart of their career they sit on fourpart of their career they sit on four boards they collect you a million aboards they collect you a million aboards they collect you a million a million half dollar a year in director'smillion half dollar a year in director'smillion half dollar a year in director's fees if they get thrown off the board byfees if they get thrown off the board byfees if they get thrown off the board by the shareholders that's embarrassingthe shareholders that's embarrassingthe shareholders that's embarrassing obviously uh and it affects theirobviously uh and it affects theirobviously uh and it affects their ability to get on other boards so youability to get on other boards so youability to get on other boards so you know again incentives as I said earlierknow again incentives as I said earlierknow again incentives as I said earlier drive all human behavior the incentivesdrive all human behavior the incentivesdrive all human behavior the incentives directors they want to preserve theirdirectors they want to preserve theirdirectors they want to preserve their board seats so if you have a directorboard seats so if you have a directorboard seats so if you have a director now the directors on board serve innow the directors on board serve innow the directors on board serve in various roles the most vulnerable ones
various roles the most vulnerable onesvarious roles the most vulnerable ones are ones who for example chair aare ones who for example chair aare ones who for example chair a compensation committee and if they putcompensation committee and if they putcompensation committee and if they put in a bad plan or they overpaidin a bad plan or they overpaidin a bad plan or they overpaid management you know they're subject tomanagement you know they're subject tomanagement you know they're subject to attack by shareholders but you knowattack by shareholders but you knowattack by shareholders but you know these contests are not disimilar tothese contests are not disimilar tothese contests are not disimilar to political contests where therepolitical contests where therepolitical contests where there mudslinging and other side puts outmudslinging and other side puts outmudslinging and other side puts out false information about you you have tofalse information about you you have tofalse information about you you have to respond and they're spending therespond and they're spending therespond and they're spending the shareholders money so they have sort ofshareholders money so they have sort ofshareholders money so they have sort of unlimited resources and you're spendingunlimited resources and you're spendingunlimited resources and you're spending your and your investors money you knowyour and your investors money you knowyour and your investors money you know when you're a small firm finitewhen you're a small firm finitewhen you're a small firm finite resources so they can outspend you theyresources so they can outspend you theyresources so they can outspend you they can sue you they can try to you know uhcan sue you they can try to you know uhcan sue you they can try to you know uh Jigger the uh the mechanics and such aJigger the uh the mechanics and such aJigger the uh the mechanics and such a way uh that you're going to lose there'sway uh that you're going to lose there'sway uh that you're going to lose there's some unfortunate stuff that's happenedsome unfortunate stuff that's happenedsome unfortunate stuff that's happened in the past you know manipulativein the past you know manipulativein the past you know manipulative so also some stuff that's public like inso also some stuff that's public like inso also some stuff that's public like in the press and all this kind of stuff of
the press and all this kind of stuff ofthe press and all this kind of stuff of course you know there'll be you knowcourse you know there'll be you knowcourse you know there'll be you know articles about you know you know thearticles about you know you know thearticles about you know you know the dirty days where they would uh godirty days where they would uh godirty days where they would uh go through your trash and you know makethrough your trash and you know makethrough your trash and you know make sure that you know you're not sleepingsure that you know you're not sleepingsure that you know you're not sleeping around and you know things like this butaround and you know things like this butaround and you know things like this but that's okay I I can I'm subject I canthat's okay I I can I'm subject I canthat's okay I I can I'm subject I can survive extreme scrutiny because I'vesurvive extreme scrutiny because I'vesurvive extreme scrutiny because I've been through this for a long time sobeen through this for a long time sobeen through this for a long time so you're saying the fat and happyyou're saying the fat and happyyou're saying the fat and happy hens um can get very uh wolflike whenhens um can get very uh wolflike whenhens um can get very uh wolflike when the fox is trying to break in is thisthe fox is trying to break in is thisthe fox is trying to break in is this how do we extend this the fox is ahow do we extend this the fox is ahow do we extend this the fox is a threat to the hens yeah but but you'rethreat to the hens yeah but but you'rethreat to the hens yeah but but you're you've just Charis the charismatic Foxyou've just Charis the charismatic Foxyou've just Charis the charismatic Fox just explained to me why the fox is goodjust explained to me why the fox is goodjust explained to me why the fox is good for everybody in the hen house at thefor everybody in the hen house at thefor everybody in the hen house at the end of the day it's actually very goodend of the day it's actually very goodend of the day it's actually very good on a board to have someone you know ifon a board to have someone you know ifon a board to have someone you know if you there are many examples over timeyou there are many examples over timeyou there are many examples over time and some handful of high-profile onesand some handful of high-profile onesand some handful of high-profile ones where the board fought tooth and nail to
where the board fought tooth and nail towhere the board fought tooth and nail to keep the activist off the board and thenkeep the activist off the board and thenkeep the activist off the board and then once the activist got on the board theyonce the activist got on the board theyonce the activist got on the board they said you know the guy's not so bad aftersaid you know the guy's not so bad aftersaid you know the guy's not so bad after all the shareholders voted them on he'sall the shareholders voted them on he'sall the shareholders voted them on he's got some decent ideas and let's all workgot some decent ideas and let's all workgot some decent ideas and let's all work together to have this work out and sotogether to have this work out and sotogether to have this work out and so there very few cases where after thethere very few cases where after thethere very few cases where after the contest when the uh by the way sometimescontest when the uh by the way sometimescontest when the uh by the way sometimes you have to replace the entire boardyou have to replace the entire boardyou have to replace the entire board we've done that um but some most caseswe've done that um but some most caseswe've done that um but some most cases you get a couple of seats on the boardyou get a couple of seats on the boardyou get a couple of seats on the board and it's just you know you you want toand it's just you know you you want toand it's just you know you you want to build a board comprised of diversebuild a board comprised of diversebuild a board comprised of diverse points of view uh and that's how you getpoints of view uh and that's how you getpoints of view uh and that's how you get to the truth what was the most dramaticto the truth what was the most dramaticto the truth what was the most dramatic battle for the boardbattle for the boardbattle for the board that you have been a part of uh thethat you have been a part of uh thethat you have been a part of uh the Canadian Pacific proxy contest soCanadian Pacific proxy contest soCanadian Pacific proxy contest so Canadian Pacific was like considered theCanadian Pacific was like considered theCanadian Pacific was like considered the most iconic company in Canada itmost iconic company in Canada itmost iconic company in Canada it literally built the country because theliterally built the country because theliterally built the country because the the rail that got built over the over
the rail that got built over the overthe rail that got built over the over Canada is what United the variousCanada is what United the variousCanada is what United the various provinces into a country and uh and thenprovinces into a country and uh and thenprovinces into a country and uh and then over time because the railroad businessover time because the railroad businessover time because the railroad business is pretty good business they built a tonis pretty good business they built a tonis pretty good business they built a ton of hotels they owned a lot of realof hotels they owned a lot of realof hotels they owned a lot of real estate and it became this massiveestate and it became this massiveestate and it became this massive conglomerate but it was horriblyconglomerate but it was horriblyconglomerate but it was horribly mismanaged for decades by the time wemismanaged for decades by the time wemismanaged for decades by the time we got involved it was by far the worst rungot involved it was by far the worst rungot involved it was by far the worst run Railroad in North America they had theRailroad in North America they had theRailroad in North America they had the lowest profit margins they had thelowest profit margins they had thelowest profit margins they had the lowest growth rate um the every quarterlowest growth rate um the every quarterlowest growth rate um the every quarter management would make excuses generallymanagement would make excuses generallymanagement would make excuses generally about the weather as to why theyabout the weather as to why theyabout the weather as to why they underperform versus and there there's aunderperform versus and there there's aunderperform versus and there there's a direct competitor company calleddirect competitor company calleddirect competitor company called Canadian national has a rail goes rightCanadian national has a rail goes rightCanadian national has a rail goes right across the country and Canadian Pacificacross the country and Canadian Pacificacross the country and Canadian Pacific would constantly be complaining aboutwould constantly be complaining aboutwould constantly be complaining about thethe weather basically you know same countryweather basically you know same countryweather basically you know same country same regions tracks weren't that farsame regions tracks weren't that farsame regions tracks weren't that far apart um and uh but it was a really
apart um and uh but it was a reallyapart um and uh but it was a really important company and being on thisimportant company and being on thisimportant company and being on this board was like an honorary thing andboard was like an honorary thing andboard was like an honorary thing and everyone on the board was an icon ofeveryone on the board was an icon ofeveryone on the board was an icon of Canada you know the chairman of theCanada you know the chairman of theCanada you know the chairman of the Royal Bank of Canada you know the headRoyal Bank of Canada you know the headRoyal Bank of Canada you know the head of the most important grain privatelyof the most important grain privatelyof the most important grain privately held Grain Company the you know sort ofheld Grain Company the you know sort ofheld Grain Company the you know sort of an important collection of um you knowan important collection of um you knowan important collection of um you know big-time Canadian Executives here webig-time Canadian Executives here webig-time Canadian Executives here we were you know this iswere you know this iswere you know this is probably about 13 years ago and uh youprobably about 13 years ago and uh youprobably about 13 years ago and uh you know still uh maybe 44y oldknow still uh maybe 44y oldknow still uh maybe 44y old uh from New York not a Canadian uhuh from New York not a Canadian uhuh from New York not a Canadian uh basically saying this is the worst runbasically saying this is the worst runbasically saying this is the worst run Railroad in North America and we boughtRailroad in North America and we boughtRailroad in North America and we bought 12% of the railroad at a really low12% of the railroad at a really low12% of the railroad at a really low price and we we brought with us to ourprice and we we brought with us to ourprice and we we brought with us to our first meeting the greatest Railroaderfirst meeting the greatest Railroaderfirst meeting the greatest Railroader ever a guy named Hunter Harrison who hadever a guy named Hunter Harrison who hadever a guy named Hunter Harrison who had turned around Canadian national so weturned around Canadian national so weturned around Canadian national so we like okay we've got a great asset we'velike okay we've got a great asset we'velike okay we've got a great asset we've got the greatest railroad CEO of allgot the greatest railroad CEO of all
got the greatest railroad CEO of all time he's come out of retirement to steptime he's come out of retirement to steptime he's come out of retirement to step in and run the railroad and we broughtin and run the railroad and we broughtin and run the railroad and we brought him to the first meeting and theyhim to the first meeting and theyhim to the first meeting and they wouldn't even meet with him and uh andwouldn't even meet with him and uh andwouldn't even meet with him and uh and they wouldn't certainly W considerthey wouldn't certainly W considerthey wouldn't certainly W consider hiring him and that led us to a proxyhiring him and that led us to a proxyhiring him and that led us to a proxy contest and this is where the the enginecontest and this is where the the enginecontest and this is where the the engine starts churning to to figure out howstarts churning to to figure out howstarts churning to to figure out how this contest can be won so what whatthis contest can be won so what whatthis contest can be won so what what what's involved in the key is we had towhat's involved in the key is we had towhat's involved in the key is we had to one come up with a group of directorsone come up with a group of directorsone come up with a group of directors who would be willing to step into awho would be willing to step into awho would be willing to step into a battle and we didn't want a bunch of Newbattle and we didn't want a bunch of Newbattle and we didn't want a bunch of New York directors or even AmericanYork directors or even AmericanYork directors or even American directors we wanted Canadians thedirectors we wanted Canadians thedirectors we wanted Canadians the problem was this was the most iconicproblem was this was the most iconicproblem was this was the most iconic company in Canada and we wantedcompany in Canada and we wantedcompany in Canada and we wanted high-profile people so we talk to allhigh-profile people so we talk to allhigh-profile people so we talk to all the high-profile people in Canada everythe high-profile people in Canada everythe high-profile people in Canada every one of them would say Bill you'reone of them would say Bill you'reone of them would say Bill you're entirely right this thing is the worstentirely right this thing is the worstentirely right this thing is the worst run the road it needs to be fixed butrun the road it needs to be fixed but
run the road it needs to be fixed but you know I see John at the club you knowyou know I see John at the club you knowyou know I see John at the club you know I see him at the Toronto Club you know II see him at the Toronto Club you know II see him at the Toronto Club you know I can't you know I can't do this butcan't you know I can't do this butcan't you know I can't do this but you're totally right and uh we had toyou're totally right and uh we had toyou're totally right and uh we had to and that was the concern because we'reand that was the concern because we'reand that was the concern because we're you have to file your materials by ayou have to file your materials by ayou have to file your materials by a certain day you got to put together acertain day you got to put together acertain day you got to put together a slate we needed a big slate because weslate we needed a big slate because weslate we needed a big slate because we knew that we had to replace basicallyknew that we had to replace basicallyknew that we had to replace basically all the directors uh and then one Iall the directors uh and then one Iall the directors uh and then one I spoke to uh a guy who was one of thespoke to uh a guy who was one of thespoke to uh a guy who was one of the wealthiest guys in Canada who was on thewealthiest guys in Canada who was on thewealthiest guys in Canada who was on the board at one point in time and he saidboard at one point in time and he saidboard at one point in time and he said uh uh bill I have an idea for youuh uh bill I have an idea for youuh uh bill I have an idea for you there's this woman Rebecca McDonald whythere's this woman Rebecca McDonald whythere's this woman Rebecca McDonald why don't you give her a call and I calleddon't you give her a call and I calleddon't you give her a call and I called Rebecca and she was the first woman toRebecca and she was the first woman toRebecca and she was the first woman to take a company public in Canada as CEOtake a company public in Canada as CEOtake a company public in Canada as CEO and she was a kind of anti-establishmentand she was a kind of anti-establishmentand she was a kind of anti-establishment not afraid to take on anything kind ofnot afraid to take on anything kind ofnot afraid to take on anything kind of person and I called her we had a greatperson and I called her we had a greatperson and I called her we had a great conversation
conversationconversation and she she was in the Dominicanand she she was in the Dominicanand she she was in the Dominican Republic at her house and I flew down toRepublic at her house and I flew down toRepublic at her house and I flew down to see her and she said yeah I'm all in andsee her and she said yeah I'm all in andsee her and she said yeah I'm all in and actually once we got her that enabled usactually once we got her that enabled usactually once we got her that enabled us to get others and then we put togetherto get others and then we put togetherto get others and then we put together our slate and uh we had some prettyour slate and uh we had some prettyour slate and uh we had some pretty interesting dialogue with the companyinteresting dialogue with the companyinteresting dialogue with the company they tried to embarrass us all the timethey tried to embarrass us all the timethey tried to embarrass us all the time in the Press publicly what what are wein the Press publicly what what are wein the Press publicly what what are we talk press publicly you know at onetalk press publicly you know at onetalk press publicly you know at one point I wrote a email saying look let'spoint I wrote a email saying look let'spoint I wrote a email saying look let's come to peace on this thing um but if wecome to peace on this thing um but if wecome to peace on this thing um but if we don't you're you're really forcing mydon't you're you're really forcing mydon't you're you're really forcing my hand and we're going to have to rent thehand and we're going to have to rent thehand and we're going to have to rent the largest Hall in Toronto and invite alllargest Hall in Toronto and invite alllargest Hall in Toronto and invite all the shareholders and it's going to bethe shareholders and it's going to bethe shareholders and it's going to be embarrassing for management and I I madeembarrassing for management and I I madeembarrassing for management and I I made reference to some nuclear winter let'sreference to some nuclear winter let'sreference to some nuclear winter let's not have it be a nuclear winter and theynot have it be a nuclear winter and theynot have it be a nuclear winter and they thought they'd embarrass me by releasingthought they'd embarrass me by releasingthought they'd embarrass me by releasing the email but it would only inspired usthe email but it would only inspired us
the email but it would only inspired us and we rent to the largest Hall inand we rent to the largest Hall inand we rent to the largest Hall in Canada and we put up a presentationCanada and we put up a presentationCanada and we put up a presentation walking through you know here's Canadianwalking through you know here's Canadianwalking through you know here's Canadian national here's Canadian Pacific here'snational here's Canadian Pacific here'snational here's Canadian Pacific here's what they said here's what they did andwhat they said here's what they did andwhat they said here's what they did and we had Hunter get up who was thiswe had Hunter get up who was thiswe had Hunter get up who was this incredibly charismatic guy fromincredibly charismatic guy fromincredibly charismatic guy from Tennessee uh an amazing you know he'sTennessee uh an amazing you know he'sTennessee uh an amazing you know he's like alike alike a lion incredibly deep voice unbelievablelion incredibly deep voice unbelievablelion incredibly deep voice unbelievable track record incredibly respected guytrack record incredibly respected guytrack record incredibly respected guy it's like getting Michael Jordan to comeit's like getting Michael Jordan to comeit's like getting Michael Jordan to come out of retirement andout of retirement andout of retirement and uh and come and run the company and heuh and come and run the company and heuh and come and run the company and he Hunter was incredible and uh other PaulHunter was incredible and uh other PaulHunter was incredible and uh other Paul La other members of my team were youLa other members of my team were youLa other members of my team were you know superknow superknow super engaged and the board you know Canadiansengaged and the board you know Canadiansengaged and the board you know Canadians are known to be nice so one of theare known to be nice so one of theare known to be nice so one of the problems we had is shareholders wouldproblems we had is shareholders wouldproblems we had is shareholders would never tell management or the board thatnever tell management or the board thatnever tell management or the board that they were losing it was not until thethey were losing it was not until thethey were losing it was not until the night before the meeting when the votenight before the meeting when the votenight before the meeting when the vote came in the management realized they
came in the management realized theycame in the management realized they they lost we got 99% of the vote andthey lost we got 99% of the vote andthey lost we got 99% of the vote and they they offered us a deal when theythey they offered us a deal when theythey they offered us a deal when they begged us to take a deal they said lookbegged us to take a deal they said lookbegged us to take a deal they said look we'll resign tonight so that we don'twe'll resign tonight so that we don'twe'll resign tonight so that we don't have to come to the meeting tomorrowhave to come to the meeting tomorrowhave to come to the meeting tomorrow that's how embarrassed they were butthat's how embarrassed they were butthat's how embarrassed they were but that that was kind of a interesting onethat that was kind of a interesting onethat that was kind of a interesting one so for in both this proxy battle and umso for in both this proxy battle and umso for in both this proxy battle and um the company itself this was uh one ofthe company itself this was uh one ofthe company itself this was uh one of your more successful Investments it wasyour more successful Investments it wasyour more successful Investments it was I mean the stock up about 10 times uhI mean the stock up about 10 times uhI mean the stock up about 10 times uh and it's an industrial company it's aand it's an industrial company it's aand it's an industrial company it's a railroad it's not like a growth likerailroad it's not like a growth likerailroad it's not like a growth like it's not not Google uh so it's a greatit's not not Google uh so it's a greatit's not not Google uh so it's a great story and the company's now run by a guystory and the company's now run by a guystory and the company's now run by a guy Nam Keith creel and Keith uh it wasNam Keith creel and Keith uh it wasNam Keith creel and Keith uh it was Hunter's prote and in some many waysHunter's prote and in some many waysHunter's prote and in some many ways he's actually better than Hunter uh he'she's actually better than Hunter uh he'she's actually better than Hunter uh he's doing an incredible job and we're uh thedoing an incredible job and we're uh thedoing an incredible job and we're uh the sad part here is we made it we did verysad part here is we made it we did verysad part here is we made it we did very well we tripled our money over severalwell we tripled our money over several
well we tripled our money over several years and then I went through a veryyears and then I went through a veryyears and then I went through a very challenging period because of a couplechallenging period because of a couplechallenging period because of a couple bad Investments and we had to sell ourbad Investments and we had to sell ourbad Investments and we had to sell our Canadian Pacific to pay uh to raiseCanadian Pacific to pay uh to raiseCanadian Pacific to pay uh to raise Capital to uh pay for investors who wereCapital to uh pay for investors who wereCapital to uh pay for investors who were who arewho arewho are leaving uh but we had anotherleaving uh but we had anotherleaving uh but we had another opportunity to buy back more last in theopportunity to buy back more last in theopportunity to buy back more last in the last couple years and so we're we're nowlast couple years and so we're we're nowlast couple years and so we're we're now again a major owner of the company butagain a major owner of the company butagain a major owner of the company but had we held on to originalhad we held on to originalhad we held on to original stock it would have been uh epic if youstock it would have been uh epic if youstock it would have been uh epic if you will so on this one you were right yeswill so on this one you were right yeswill so on this one you were right yes and uh I I I read an article about youand uh I I I read an article about youand uh I I I read an article about you and there's many articles about you Iand there's many articles about you Iand there's many articles about you I read an article that said bill is oftenread an article that said bill is oftenread an article that said bill is often right but you approach it with aright but you approach it with aright but you approach it with a scorched Earth uh approach that canscorched Earth uh approach that canscorched Earth uh approach that can often do more sort of can do damage Ioften do more sort of can do damage Ioften do more sort of can do damage I haven't read the off and right articlehaven't read the off and right articlehaven't read the off and right article but the good news is we are off andbut the good news is we are off andbut the good news is we are off and right and I say we because we're a teamright and I say we because we're a teamright and I say we because we're a team uh small team but a but but a
uh small team but a but but auh small team but a but but a fortunately very successful one you knowfortunately very successful one you knowfortunately very successful one you know so our batting average as investors isso our batting average as investors isso our batting average as investors is extremely high and the good news is ourextremely high and the good news is ourextremely high and the good news is our record is totally public you can seerecord is totally public you can seerecord is totally public you can see everything we've ever done but the Presseverything we've ever done but the Presseverything we've ever done but the Press doesn't really generally write about thedoesn't really generally write about thedoesn't really generally write about the success stories uh they write about thesuccess stories uh they write about thesuccess stories uh they write about the failures and so we've had some epicfailures and so we've had some epicfailures and so we've had some epic failures you know big losses U good newsfailures you know big losses U good newsfailures you know big losses U good news is they've been a a tiny minority of theis they've been a a tiny minority of theis they've been a a tiny minority of the cases now no one likes to lose moneycases now no one likes to lose moneycases now no one likes to lose money it's even worse to lose other people'sit's even worse to lose other people'sit's even worse to lose other people's money uh and I've done that occasionallymoney uh and I've done that occasionallymoney uh and I've done that occasionally uh the good news is if you stuck with usuh the good news is if you stuck with usuh the good news is if you stuck with us you've done very well you know over ayou've done very well you know over ayou've done very well you know over a long time on a small tangent since welong time on a small tangent since welong time on a small tangent since we were talking aboutwere talking aboutwere talking about boards did you get a chance to see whatboards did you get a chance to see whatboards did you get a chance to see what happened with the open AI board cuz I'mhappened with the open AI board cuz I'mhappened with the open AI board cuz I'm talking to Sam wman Soontalking to Sam wman Soontalking to Sam wman Soon um is there any insight you have justum is there any insight you have justum is there any insight you have just maybe lessons you draw from this kind of
maybe lessons you draw from this kind ofmaybe lessons you draw from this kind of sure these kinds of events especiallysure these kinds of events especiallysure these kinds of events especially with an AI technology company suchwith an AI technology company suchwith an AI technology company such dramatic things happening yeah that wasdramatic things happening yeah that wasdramatic things happening yeah that was an incredible Story look governancean incredible Story look governancean incredible Story look governance really matters and the governancereally matters and the governancereally matters and the governance structure of opai I think leavesstructure of opai I think leavesstructure of opai I think leaves something to be desired you know I thinksomething to be desired you know I thinksomething to be desired you know I think Sam's Point was this and maybe musk ElonSam's Point was this and maybe musk ElonSam's Point was this and maybe musk Elon Musk Point originally set up as aMusk Point originally set up as aMusk Point originally set up as a nonprofit uh and uh reminds me actuallynonprofit uh and uh reminds me actuallynonprofit uh and uh reminds me actually I invested in a nonprofit run by aI invested in a nonprofit run by aI invested in a nonprofit run by a former Facebook founder where he wasformer Facebook founder where he wasformer Facebook founder where he was going to create a Facebook like entitygoing to create a Facebook like entitygoing to create a Facebook like entity for nonprofits to promote you knowfor nonprofits to promote you knowfor nonprofits to promote you know goodness in the world and the problemgoodness in the world and the problemgoodness in the world and the problem was he couldn't hire the talent hewas he couldn't hire the talent hewas he couldn't hire the talent he wanted because he couldn't Grant stockwanted because he couldn't Grant stockwanted because he couldn't Grant stock options he couldn't pay Market salariesoptions he couldn't pay Market salariesoptions he couldn't pay Market salaries um and ultimately we ended up he endedum and ultimately we ended up he endedum and ultimately we ended up he ended up selling the business to a for-profitup selling the business to a for-profitup selling the business to a for-profit so it taught me for-profit solutions toso it taught me for-profit solutions toso it taught me for-profit solutions to problems are much better than nonprofits
problems are much better than nonprofitsproblems are much better than nonprofits and here you had kind of a blend rightand here you had kind of a blend rightand here you had kind of a blend right it was set up as a nonprofit but I thinkit was set up as a nonprofit but I thinkit was set up as a nonprofit but I think they found the same thing they couldn'tthey found the same thing they couldn'tthey found the same thing they couldn't hire the talent they wanted withouthire the talent they wanted withouthire the talent they wanted without having a for-profit subsidiary um buthaving a for-profit subsidiary um buthaving a for-profit subsidiary um but the nonprofit entity as I understand itthe nonprofit entity as I understand itthe nonprofit entity as I understand it owns or a big chunk of open Ai and theowns or a big chunk of open Ai and theowns or a big chunk of open Ai and the investors own sort of a capped interestinvestors own sort of a capped interestinvestors own sort of a capped interest where their upside is capped uh and theywhere their upside is capped uh and theywhere their upside is capped uh and they don't have representation on thedon't have representation on thedon't have representation on the board and I think that's a you know wasboard and I think that's a you know wasboard and I think that's a you know was a setup for a problem and that's clearlya setup for a problem and that's clearlya setup for a problem and that's clearly what happened here and there's I guesswhat happened here and there's I guesswhat happened here and there's I guess some kind of complexity in the governorsome kind of complexity in the governorsome kind of complexity in the governor I mean because of this nonprofit and capI mean because of this nonprofit and capI mean because of this nonprofit and cap profit thing it seems like there's aprofit thing it seems like there's aprofit thing it seems like there's a bunch of complexity and um non-standardbunch of complexity and um non-standardbunch of complexity and um non-standard aspects to itaspects to itaspects to it that perhaps also contributed to thethat perhaps also contributed to thethat perhaps also contributed to the problem yeah uh governance reallyproblem yeah uh governance reallyproblem yeah uh governance really matters Boards of directors reallymatters Boards of directors reallymatters Boards of directors really matter um giving the shareholders the
matter um giving the shareholders thematter um giving the shareholders the right to uh have input at least once aright to uh have input at least once aright to uh have input at least once a year on the structure of the governanceyear on the structure of the governanceyear on the structure of the governance of a compan is really importantof a compan is really importantof a compan is really important and private you know Venture back boardsand private you know Venture back boardsand private you know Venture back boards are also not ideal you know I'm anare also not ideal you know I'm anare also not ideal you know I'm an active investor andactive investor andactive investor and venturers and uh there are some moreventurers and uh there are some moreventurers and uh there are some more complicated issues that emerge incomplicated issues that emerge incomplicated issues that emerge in private sort of venture stage companiesprivate sort of venture stage companiesprivate sort of venture stage companies um where board members have somewhat uhum where board members have somewhat uhum where board members have somewhat uh Divergent incentives from you know theDivergent incentives from you know theDivergent incentives from you know the long-term owners of a business and whatlong-term owners of a business and whatlong-term owners of a business and what you see a lot in Venture boards is youyou see a lot in Venture boards is youyou see a lot in Venture boards is you know they're presided over generally byknow they're presided over generally byknow they're presided over generally by uh you know Venture Capital investorsuh you know Venture Capital investorsuh you know Venture Capital investors who are big investors in the companywho are big investors in the companywho are big investors in the company and often times it's more important toand often times it's more important toand often times it's more important to them to give the uh to have the publicthem to give the uh to have the publicthem to give the uh to have the public perception that they're good directorsperception that they're good directorsperception that they're good directors so they get the next best deal right ifso they get the next best deal right ifso they get the next best deal right if they get a you know if they have athey get a you know if they have athey get a you know if they have a reputation for kind of taking on
reputation for kind of taking onreputation for kind of taking on management too aggressively word willmanagement too aggressively word willmanagement too aggressively word will get out in the small community ofget out in the small community ofget out in the small community of Founders and they'll miss the nextFounders and they'll miss the nextFounders and they'll miss the next Google and so they their interests areGoogle and so they their interests areGoogle and so they their interests are not just in that particular companynot just in that particular companynot just in that particular company that's also you know one of the problemsthat's also you know one of the problemsthat's also you know one of the problems again it all comes back to incentivesagain it all comes back to incentivesagain it all comes back to incentives can you explain to me the difference youcan you explain to me the difference youcan you explain to me the difference you know Venture back like VCS andknow Venture back like VCS andknow Venture back like VCS and shareholders so this means before theshareholders so this means before theshareholders so this means before the company goes public yeah so privatecompany goes public yeah so privatecompany goes public yeah so private Venture back companies the boards tendVenture back companies the boards tendVenture back companies the boards tend to be very small uh could be a handfulto be very small uh could be a handfulto be very small uh could be a handful of the Venture investors and managementof the Venture investors and managementof the Venture investors and management they're often very rarely uh independentthey're often very rarely uh independentthey're often very rarely uh independent directors it's just not an idealdirectors it's just not an idealdirectors it's just not an ideal structure oh I see you want independentstructure oh I see you want independentstructure oh I see you want independent it's beneficial to have people who haveit's beneficial to have people who haveit's beneficial to have people who have an economic interest in the business andan economic interest in the business andan economic interest in the business and they care only about the success of thatthey care only about the success of thatthey care only about the success of that company uh as as opposed to someone whocompany uh as as opposed to someone whocompany uh as as opposed to someone who you know if you think about the Venture
you know if you think about the Ventureyou know if you think about the Venture business getting into the best deals isbusiness getting into the best deals isbusiness getting into the best deals is more important than any one deal and youmore important than any one deal and youmore important than any one deal and you see cases where you know the boards gosee cases where you know the boards gosee cases where you know the boards go along with in some cases bad behavior onalong with in some cases bad behavior onalong with in some cases bad behavior on the part of management because they wantthe part of management because they wantthe part of management because they want a reputation for being kind of a aa reputation for being kind of a aa reputation for being kind of a a Founder friendly director you knowFounder friendly director you knowFounder friendly director you know that's that's kind of problematic youthat's that's kind of problematic youthat's that's kind of problematic you don't have the same issue in publicdon't have the same issue in publicdon't have the same issue in public company boards so we talked about somecompany boards so we talked about somecompany boards so we talked about some of some of the big wins and your trackof some of the big wins and your trackof some of the big wins and your track record but you said there was some bigrecord but you said there was some bigrecord but you said there was some big losses so what what's uh what's thelosses so what what's uh what's thelosses so what what's uh what's the biggest loss of your career biggest lossbiggest loss of your career biggest lossbiggest loss of your career biggest loss of my career is a company called valaliof my career is a company called valaliof my career is a company called valali and pharmaceuticals we made anand pharmaceuticals we made anand pharmaceuticals we made an investment in business that didn't meetinvestment in business that didn't meetinvestment in business that didn't meet our core principles uh problem of theour core principles uh problem of theour core principles uh problem of the pharmaceutical industry and there arepharmaceutical industry and there arepharmaceutical industry and there are many problems as I've learned is it's amany problems as I've learned is it's amany problems as I've learned is it's a very volatile business right it's basedvery volatile business right it's based
very volatile business right it's based on drug Discovery uh it's based on youon drug Discovery uh it's based on youon drug Discovery uh it's based on you know predicting uh kind of the futureknow predicting uh kind of the futureknow predicting uh kind of the future revenues of a drug before goes offrevenues of a drug before goes offrevenues of a drug before goes off patent um you know lot lots ofpatent um you know lot lots ofpatent um you know lot lots of complexities and we thought we hadcomplexities and we thought we hadcomplexities and we thought we had founded a a pharmaceutical company wefounded a a pharmaceutical company wefounded a a pharmaceutical company we could own because of a very unusualcould own because of a very unusualcould own because of a very unusual founder in the way he approached thisfounder in the way he approached thisfounder in the way he approached this business um we it was a company wherebusiness um we it was a company wherebusiness um we it was a company where another activist was on the board ofanother activist was on the board ofanother activist was on the board of directors of the company and kind ofdirectors of the company and kind ofdirectors of the company and kind of governing and overseeing the day-to-daygoverning and overseeing the day-to-daygoverning and overseeing the day-to-day decisions and we ended up making adecisions and we ended up making adecisions and we ended up making a passive investment in the company and uppassive investment in the company and uppassive investment in the company and up until this point in time we reallyuntil this point in time we reallyuntil this point in time we really didn't make passivedidn't make passivedidn't make passive Investments and the company made aInvestments and the company made aInvestments and the company made a series of decisions that were you knowseries of decisions that were you knowseries of decisions that were you know disastrous and then we stepped in to trydisastrous and then we stepped in to trydisastrous and then we stepped in to try to solve the problem it was the firstto solve the problem it was the firstto solve the problem it was the first time I ever joined a board and the messtime I ever joined a board and the messtime I ever joined a board and the mess was much larger than I realized from thewas much larger than I realized from thewas much larger than I realized from the outside and then I was kind of stuck and
outside and then I was kind of stuck andoutside and then I was kind of stuck and it was a very much a confidenceit was a very much a confidenceit was a very much a confidence sensitive strategy CU they they builtsensitive strategy CU they they builtsensitive strategy CU they they built their business by acquiringtheir business by acquiringtheir business by acquiring pharmaceutical assets and they oftenpharmaceutical assets and they oftenpharmaceutical assets and they often issued stock when they acquired uhissued stock when they acquired uhissued stock when they acquired uh targets and so once the market losttargets and so once the market losttargets and so once the market lost confidence in management the stock priceconfidence in management the stock priceconfidence in management the stock price got crushed and impaired their abilitygot crushed and impaired their abilitygot crushed and impaired their ability to continue to acquire lowcost you knowto continue to acquire lowcost you knowto continue to acquire lowcost you know drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4 billion yeah how's that for a big lossbillion yeah how's that for a big lossbillion yeah how's that for a big loss that's it's upthat's it's upthat's it's up there I'm sweating this wholethere I'm sweating this wholethere I'm sweating this whole conversation both the wins and theconversation both the wins and theconversation both the wins and the losses and the stakes involved and bylosses and the stakes involved and bylosses and the stakes involved and by the way that that loss catalyzed otherthe way that that loss catalyzed otherthe way that that loss catalyzed other what I call marketto Market losses sowhat I call marketto Market losses sowhat I call marketto Market losses so very high-profile huge number disastrousvery high-profile huge number disastrousvery high-profile huge number disastrous press uh then people said okay Bill'spress uh then people said okay Bill'spress uh then people said okay Bill's going to go out of business so we'regoing to go out of business so we'regoing to go out of business so we're going to bet against everything he'sgoing to bet against everything he'sgoing to bet against everything he's doing and we know us entire portfoliodoing and we know us entire portfoliodoing and we know us entire portfolio because we only own 10 things and we
because we only own 10 things and webecause we only own 10 things and we were short a company called urbal lifewere short a company called urbal lifewere short a company called urbal life uhuhuh very famously we've only really shortedvery famously we've only really shortedvery famously we've only really shorted two companies the first one there's atwo companies the first one there's atwo companies the first one there's a book the second one there's a movie okaybook the second one there's a movie okaybook the second one there's a movie okay we no longer short companies but uh sowe no longer short companies but uh sowe no longer short companies but uh so people pushed up the price of verbalpeople pushed up the price of verbalpeople pushed up the price of verbal life um which is when you're a shortlife um which is when you're a shortlife um which is when you're a short seller that's catastrophic I can explainseller that's catastrophic I can explainseller that's catastrophic I can explain that and then they also shorted thethat and then they also shorted thethat and then they also shorted the other stocks that we owned and so thatother stocks that we owned and so thatother stocks that we owned and so that Valiant loss led to an overall more thanValiant loss led to an overall more thanValiant loss led to an overall more than 30% loss in the value of our portfolio30% loss in the value of our portfolio30% loss in the value of our portfolio the Valiant loss was real and we wasthe Valiant loss was real and we wasthe Valiant loss was real and we was crystallized we end up selling thecrystallized we end up selling thecrystallized we end up selling the position taking that loss most of theposition taking that loss most of theposition taking that loss most of the other losses were what I would callother losses were what I would callother losses were what I would call marketto Market losses that weremarketto Market losses that weremarketto Market losses that were temporary but many people go out oftemporary but many people go out oftemporary but many people go out of business because as I mentioned beforebusiness because as I mentioned beforebusiness because as I mentioned before large move in a price if investors arelarge move in a price if investors arelarge move in a price if investors are redeeming or you have leverage you knowredeeming or you have leverage you knowredeeming or you have leverage you know it can put you out of business and if
it can put you out of business and ifit can put you out of business and if and people assumed if we got put out ofand people assumed if we got put out ofand people assumed if we got put out of business we'd have to sell everything orbusiness we'd have to sell everything orbusiness we'd have to sell everything or cover our short position and that wouldcover our short position and that wouldcover our short position and that would make the losses even worse so Wallmake the losses even worse so Wallmake the losses even worse so Wall Street is kind of Ruthless so they canStreet is kind of Ruthless so they canStreet is kind of Ruthless so they can make money off that whole thingmake money off that whole thingmake money off that whole thing absolutely so they use the opportunityabsolutely so they use the opportunityabsolutely so they use the opportunity of valant to try to destroy you yesof valant to try to destroy you yesof valant to try to destroy you yes reputation financially and thenreputation financially and thenreputation financially and then capitalize and make money off of thatcapitalize and make money off of thatcapitalize and make money off of that yes well that's a terrifying spot to beyes well that's a terrifying spot to beyes well that's a terrifying spot to be in what was the like going through thatin what was the like going through thatin what was the like going through that was pretty Grim uh it was uh it'swas pretty Grim uh it was uh it'swas pretty Grim uh it was uh it's actually much worse than that because Iactually much worse than that because Iactually much worse than that because I had a lot of stuff going on personallyhad a lot of stuff going on personallyhad a lot of stuff going on personally as well so and these things tend to beas well so and these things tend to beas well so and these things tend to be correlated the Valiant mistake came at acorrelated the Valiant mistake came at acorrelated the Valiant mistake came at a time where I was contemplating mytime where I was contemplating mytime where I was contemplating my marriage uh and uh I was also we youmarriage uh and uh I was also we youmarriage uh and uh I was also we you know the problem with the hedge fundknow the problem with the hedge fundknow the problem with the hedge fund business business is when you get to abusiness business is when you get to abusiness business is when you get to a certain scale the CEO becomes like the
certain scale the CEO becomes like thecertain scale the CEO becomes like the chief marketing officer of the businesschief marketing officer of the businesschief marketing officer of the business and I'm really an investor as opposed toand I'm really an investor as opposed toand I'm really an investor as opposed to a marketing guy um but when you havea marketing guy um but when you havea marketing guy um but when you have investors who give you a few hundredinvestors who give you a few hundredinvestors who give you a few hundred million dollars they want to see you youmillion dollars they want to see you youmillion dollars they want to see you you know once a year Bill I'd love to seeknow once a year Bill I'd love to seeknow once a year Bill I'd love to see you for an hour but if you got a coupleyou for an hour but if you got a coupleyou for an hour but if you got a couple hundred of those you find yourself on ahundred of those you find yourself on ahundred of those you find yourself on a plane to the Middle East to Asia uhplane to the Middle East to Asia uhplane to the Middle East to Asia uh flying around the country this wasflying around the country this wasflying around the country this was preum uh and uh that takes you away frompreum uh and uh that takes you away frompreum uh and uh that takes you away from the investment process you have tothe investment process you have tothe investment process you have to delegate more that was a contributor todelegate more that was a contributor todelegate more that was a contributor to the Valiant mistake so now we lose a tonthe Valiant mistake so now we lose a tonthe Valiant mistake so now we lose a ton of money on Valiant my ex-wife and Iof money on Valiant my ex-wife and Iof money on Valiant my ex-wife and I were you know talking about separatingwere you know talking about separatingwere you know talking about separating getting divorced I put that on hold Igetting divorced I put that on hold Igetting divorced I put that on hold I didn't want to make a decision in thedidn't want to make a decision in thedidn't want to make a decision in the middle of thismiddle of thismiddle of this crisis and things just kick gettingcrisis and things just kick gettingcrisis and things just kick getting worse we were also sued when you lose aworse we were also sued when you lose aworse we were also sued when you lose a lot of money we didn't get sued by our
lot of money we didn't get sued by ourlot of money we didn't get sued by our investors but we got sued by ainvestors but we got sued by ainvestors but we got sued by a shareholder because when the stock priceshareholder because when the stock priceshareholder because when the stock price goes down shareholders Sue we' donegoes down shareholders Sue we' donegoes down shareholders Sue we' done nothing wrong other than make a bignothing wrong other than make a bignothing wrong other than make a big mistake but you know so you havemistake but you know so you havemistake but you know so you have litigation uh your investors are takinglitigation uh your investors are takinglitigation uh your investors are taking their money out um I'm in the middle oftheir money out um I'm in the middle oftheir money out um I'm in the middle of a divorce uh the divorce starts toa divorce uh the divorce starts toa divorce uh the divorce starts to proceed U my my ex-wife's lawyerproceed U my my ex-wife's lawyerproceed U my my ex-wife's lawyer expectations of what my net worth wasexpectations of what my net worth wasexpectations of what my net worth was was about three times what it actuallywas about three times what it actuallywas about three times what it actually was and it was going lower right in thewas and it was going lower right in thewas and it was going lower right in the middle of this and I I remember themiddle of this and I I remember themiddle of this and I I remember the lawyer saying um look bill you know youlawyer saying um look bill you know youlawyer saying um look bill you know you know we've estimated your net worth at Xknow we've estimated your net worth at Xknow we've estimated your net worth at X but don't worry we only want a third butbut don't worry we only want a third butbut don't worry we only want a third but X was 3x so a third was 100%X was 3x so a third was 100%X was 3x so a third was 100% and um and then we had I had litigationand um and then we had I had litigationand um and then we had I had litigation uh and actually never before publiclyuh and actually never before publiclyuh and actually never before publicly disclosed and I'll share it with you nowdisclosed and I'll share it with you nowdisclosed and I'll share it with you now um we had a a public company that ownedum we had a a public company that ownedum we had a a public company that owned U about a third of our portfolio that
U about a third of our portfolio thatU about a third of our portfolio that was called our version of Burkshirewas called our version of Burkshirewas called our version of Burkshire hathway I tried to you know learn fromhathway I tried to you know learn fromhathway I tried to you know learn from Mr Buffett over time and it was so toMr Buffett over time and it was so toMr Buffett over time and it was so to speak permanent Capital the beauty ofspeak permanent Capital the beauty ofspeak permanent Capital the beauty of problem with hedge funds people can takeproblem with hedge funds people can takeproblem with hedge funds people can take their money out every quarter um whattheir money out every quarter um whattheir money out every quarter um what Buffett has is is a company where peopleBuffett has is is a company where peopleBuffett has is is a company where people want to take their money out they sellwant to take their money out they sellwant to take their money out they sell the stock but the money stays so we setthe stock but the money stays so we setthe stock but the money stays so we set up a similar structure in October ofup a similar structure in October ofup a similar structure in October of 2014 and then a year later Valiant2014 and then a year later Valiant2014 and then a year later Valiant happens and then a year later we're inhappens and then a year later we're inhappens and then a year later we're in the middle of the mess and we're stillthe middle of the mess and we're stillthe middle of the mess and we're still in the mess you know like by kind of midin the mess you know like by kind of midin the mess you know like by kind of mid uh 2017 we've got a litigationuh 2017 we've got a litigationuh 2017 we've got a litigation underway uh and a another activistunderway uh and a another activistunderway uh and a another activist investor a firm called Ed Associatesinvestor a firm called Ed Associatesinvestor a firm called Ed Associates which is uh run by a guy named Paulwhich is uh run by a guy named Paulwhich is uh run by a guy named Paul singer took a big position in our publicsinger took a big position in our publicsinger took a big position in our public company that was the bulk of our capitalcompany that was the bulk of our capitalcompany that was the bulk of our capital and they shorted all the stocks that weand they shorted all the stocks that weand they shorted all the stocks that we owned and they went long the short
owned and they went long the shortowned and they went long the short probably went long the short that weprobably went long the short that weprobably went long the short that we were short and they were making a betwere short and they were making a betwere short and they were making a bet that we'd be forced to liquidate andthat we'd be forced to liquidate andthat we'd be forced to liquidate and then they would make money on you knowthen they would make money on you knowthen they would make money on you know our public company was trading at aour public company was trading at aour public company was trading at a discount to what all the Securities werediscount to what all the Securities werediscount to what all the Securities were worth so they bought the they bought theworth so they bought the they bought theworth so they bought the they bought the public company they shorted thepublic company they shorted thepublic company they shorted the Securities and then they you know cameSecurities and then they you know cameSecurities and then they you know came to see us and to try to you know beto see us and to try to you know beto see us and to try to you know be activists and force us toactivists and force us toactivists and force us to liquidate and uh that sort of wow so Iliquidate and uh that sort of wow so Iliquidate and uh that sort of wow so I thought this was going to be wow I Ithought this was going to be wow I Ithought this was going to be wow I I envisioned an end where the divorceenvisioned an end where the divorceenvisioned an end where the divorce takes all of my resources the permanenttakes all of my resources the permanenttakes all of my resources the permanent Capital vehicle ends up gettingCapital vehicle ends up gettingCapital vehicle ends up getting liquidated and another activist in myliquidated and another activist in myliquidated and another activist in my industry puts me out of business and Iindustry puts me out of business and Iindustry puts me out of business and I had met ner oxman right around this timehad met ner oxman right around this timehad met ner oxman right around this time and I'd Fallen completely in love withand I'd Fallen completely in love withand I'd Fallen completely in love with her and I was envisioning a world whereher and I was envisioning a world whereher and I was envisioning a world where I was bankrupt a judge found me guilty
I was bankrupt a judge found me guiltyI was bankrupt a judge found me guilty of you know whatever you know he sendsof you know whatever you know he sendsof you know whatever you know he sends me off to jail or not that judge becauseme off to jail or not that judge becauseme off to jail or not that judge because he was a civil judge but another judgehe was a civil judge but another judgehe was a civil judge but another judge sues the SEC Department of Justice and Isues the SEC Department of Justice and Isues the SEC Department of Justice and I find myself in this incredible mess uhfind myself in this incredible mess uhfind myself in this incredible mess uh and I decided I didn't want things toand I decided I didn't want things toand I decided I didn't want things to end that way so I uh I did something I'dend that way so I uh I did something I'dend that way so I uh I did something I'd never done before I talked all beforenever done before I talked all beforenever done before I talked all before about you don't borrow money I borrowedabout you don't borrow money I borrowedabout you don't borrow money I borrowed money and I borrow $300 million uh frommoney and I borrow $300 million uh frommoney and I borrow $300 million uh from JP Morgan in the middle of this mess andJP Morgan in the middle of this mess andJP Morgan in the middle of this mess and uh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit inuh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit inuh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit in seeing through it um and also uh youseeing through it um and also uh youseeing through it um and also uh you know I had been a a good client over aknow I had been a a good client over aknow I had been a a good client over a long period of time and it's like a youlong period of time and it's like a youlong period of time and it's like a you know it's a handshake bank and they betknow it's a handshake bank and they betknow it's a handshake bank and they bet that I would succeed and I took thatthat I would succeed and I took thatthat I would succeed and I took that money to buy enough stock in my publicmoney to buy enough stock in my publicmoney to buy enough stock in my public company I could prevent an activist fromcompany I could prevent an activist fromcompany I could prevent an activist from taking it over and effectively buytaking it over and effectively buytaking it over and effectively buy control of our little public
control of our little publiccontrol of our little public company and I got that done and that Icompany and I got that done and that Icompany and I got that done and that I knew was the moment the turning pointknew was the moment the turning pointknew was the moment the turning point and uh I resolved my divorce andand uh I resolved my divorce andand uh I resolved my divorce and divorces get easier to resolve whendivorces get easier to resolve whendivorces get easier to resolve when things are going badly I was able tothings are going badly I was able tothings are going badly I was able to resolve that we settled the litigationresolve that we settled the litigationresolve that we settled the litigation like was buying blocks of our stock inlike was buying blocks of our stock inlike was buying blocks of our stock in the market I remember a day I bought athe market I remember a day I bought athe market I remember a day I bought a big block of stock in the market I get abig block of stock in the market I get abig block of stock in the market I get a call from Gordon singer who is Paulcall from Gordon singer who is Paulcall from Gordon singer who is Paul Singer's son who runs their uh LondonSinger's son who runs their uh LondonSinger's son who runs their uh London part of their business he's like Billpart of their business he's like Billpart of their business he's like Bill was that you buying that block I saidwas that you buying that block I saidwas that you buying that block I said yes and he's likeyes and he's likeyes and he's like fuck so he knew uh he knew that once Ifuck so he knew uh he knew that once Ifuck so he knew uh he knew that once I got that they were not going to be ablegot that they were not going to be ablegot that they were not going to be able to succeed and they went away and thatto succeed and they went away and thatto succeed and they went away and that that was thethat was thethat was the bottom uh and then I I uh we've had anbottom uh and then I I uh we've had anbottom uh and then I I uh we've had an incredible run since then and then youincredible run since then and then youincredible run since then and then you were able to protect your reputationwere able to protect your reputationwere able to protect your reputation from the Valiant uh failure still I meanfrom the Valiant uh failure still I meanfrom the Valiant uh failure still I mean you know this is a business where you're
you know this is a business where you'reyou know this is a business where you're going to make some mistakes it was a biggoing to make some mistakes it was a biggoing to make some mistakes it was a big one it was very reputationally damagingone it was very reputationally damagingone it was very reputationally damaging uh the Press was a totaluh the Press was a totaluh the Press was a total disaster uh but I'm not a quitter anddisaster uh but I'm not a quitter anddisaster uh but I'm not a quitter and actually the the key moments for us uhactually the the key moments for us uhactually the the key moments for us uh we had never taken our core investmentwe had never taken our core investmentwe had never taken our core investment principles and actually really writtenprinciples and actually really writtenprinciples and actually really written them down something we talked about atthem down something we talked about atthem down something we talked about at meetings uh invest you know kind of ourmeetings uh invest you know kind of ourmeetings uh invest you know kind of our investment team meetings had a member ofinvestment team meetings had a member ofinvestment team meetings had a member of the team I said look go find a big piecethe team I said look go find a big piecethe team I said look go find a big piece of granite and a chisel and let's takeof granite and a chisel and let's takeof granite and a chisel and let's take those core principles I want them likethose core principles I want them likethose core principles I want them like Moses's Ten Commandments okay we'reMoses's Ten Commandments okay we'reMoses's Ten Commandments okay we're going to Chisel them and then we'regoing to Chisel them and then we'regoing to Chisel them and then we're going to put it up on the wall and oncegoing to put it up on the wall and oncegoing to put it up on the wall and once we produce those we put one onwe produce those we put one onwe produce those we put one on everyone's desk I said look if we evereveryone's desk I said look if we evereveryone's desk I said look if we ever again Veer from the core principles youagain Veer from the core principles youagain Veer from the core principles you know hit me they with a baseball batknow hit me they with a baseball batknow hit me they with a baseball bat yeah and that was the bottom and thenyeah and that was the bottom and thenyeah and that was the bottom and then ever since then we've done we've had the
ever since then we've done we've had theever since then we've done we've had the best six years in the history of thebest six years in the history of thebest six years in the history of the firm so refocus on thefundamentals story love helps I Ifundamentals story love helps I I literally met ner at the absolute bottomliterally met ner at the absolute bottomliterally met ner at the absolute bottom our first date was September 7th of 2017our first date was September 7th of 2017our first date was September 7th of 2017 that was very close to the bottomthat was very close to the bottomthat was very close to the bottom actually there's one other element toactually there's one other element toactually there's one other element to the story so this went on for a fewthe story so this went on for a fewthe story so this went on for a few months after I met her the other elementmonths after I met her the other elementmonths after I met her the other element is that uh one day I get a call from neris that uh one day I get a call from neris that uh one day I get a call from ner she's like Bill guess what I'm like whatshe's like Bill guess what I'm like whatshe's like Bill guess what I'm like what Brad Pit is coming to the media lab heBrad Pit is coming to the media lab heBrad Pit is coming to the media lab he wants to see my work I'm like that'swants to see my work I'm like that'swants to see my work I'm like that's beautiful sweetheart I didn't know Bradbeautiful sweetheart I didn't know Bradbeautiful sweetheart I didn't know Brad Pit was interested in in yourPit was interested in in yourPit was interested in in your work as a man that's a difficult phonework as a man that's a difficult phonework as a man that's a difficult phone call to take and apparently uh he'scall to take and apparently uh he'scall to take and apparently uh he's really in architecture okay um now n andreally in architecture okay um now n andreally in architecture okay um now n and I were like you know we would WhatsAppI were like you know we would WhatsAppI were like you know we would WhatsApp all day every day we talk throughout theall day every day we talk throughout theall day every day we talk throughout the day uh Brad Pit shows up at the mediaday uh Brad Pit shows up at the mediaday uh Brad Pit shows up at the media lap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to herlap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to her
lap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to her in the morning I kind of text her to seein the morning I kind of text her to seein the morning I kind of text her to see how things are going don't hear back andhow things are going don't hear back andhow things are going don't hear back and on WhatsApp you can see like whether theon WhatsApp you can see like whether theon WhatsApp you can see like whether the other person's read it or not okay yeahother person's read it or not okay yeahother person's read it or not okay yeah no response Yeah couple hours later sendno response Yeah couple hours later sendno response Yeah couple hours later send another text no response six o'clock noanother text no response six o'clock noanother text no response six o'clock no response 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock noresponse 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock noresponse 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock no responseresponseresponse and uh you know yeah she finally callsand uh you know yeah she finally callsand uh you know yeah she finally calls me at 10:30 and tells me how great is some at 10:30 and tells me how great is some at 10:30 and tells me how great is so I had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judgeI had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judgeI had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judge is g to find me uh we're going to loseis g to find me uh we're going to loseis g to find me uh we're going to lose to theto theto the judge uh all my assets will disappearjudge uh all my assets will disappearjudge uh all my assets will disappear yeah and then Brad Pit's going to takeyeah and then Brad Pit's going to takeyeah and then Brad Pit's going to take my girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's yourmy girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's yourmy girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's your competition this is great so it was likecompetition this is great so it was likecompetition this is great so it was like a moment yeah that that was sort of thea moment yeah that that was sort of thea moment yeah that that was sort of the bottom and then sort of you know thebottom and then sort of you know thebottom and then sort of you know the motivational thing I didn't want to losemotivational thing I didn't want to losemotivational thing I didn't want to lose to an activist didn't want to lose myto an activist didn't want to lose myto an activist didn't want to lose my girl to some other guy sogirl to some other guy sogirl to some other guy so Brad Pit and you emerg from all that the
Brad Pit and you emerg from all that theBrad Pit and you emerg from all that the winner on all fronts I'm a verywinner on all fronts I'm a verywinner on all fronts I'm a very fortunate guy very fortunate and luckyfortunate guy very fortunate and luckyfortunate guy very fortunate and lucky you talked about some of the technicalyou talked about some of the technicalyou talked about some of the technical aspects of that but psychologically justaspects of that but psychologically justaspects of that but psychologically just is thereis thereis there uh like what are you doing at night byuh like what are you doing at night byuh like what are you doing at night by yourself that was a hard time hard timeyourself that was a hard time hard timeyourself that was a hard time hard time because I was separated from my wife andbecause I was separated from my wife andbecause I was separated from my wife and mymymy kids uh I was living in you know not thekids uh I was living in you know not thekids uh I was living in you know not the greatest apartment uh you know I'm yougreatest apartment uh you know I'm yougreatest apartment uh you know I'm you know had a beautiful home and so I hadknow had a beautiful home and so I hadknow had a beautiful home and so I had to go find like a bachelor place and Ito go find like a bachelor place and Ito go find like a bachelor place and I was I didn't want to be away from mywas I didn't want to be away from mywas I didn't want to be away from my kids I I I moved like 10 blocks away andkids I I I moved like 10 blocks away andkids I I I moved like 10 blocks away and I wasn't seeing them and they didn'tI wasn't seeing them and they didn'tI wasn't seeing them and they didn't like it so I ended up buying anlike it so I ended up buying anlike it so I ended up buying an apartment I didn't like uh in the sameapartment I didn't like uh in the sameapartment I didn't like uh in the same building as my kids like with abuilding as my kids like with abuilding as my kids like with a different different entrance so I coulddifferent different entrance so I coulddifferent different entrance so I could be near them but I was home alone I gotbe near them but I was home alone I gotbe near them but I was home alone I got a dog that was a uh Babar we call hima dog that was a uh Babar we call hima dog that was a uh Babar we call him Babar the not the elephant uh he's a
Babar the not the elephant uh he's aBabar the not the elephant uh he's a black labber dooodle ni nice uh he wasblack labber dooodle ni nice uh he wasblack labber dooodle ni nice uh he was supposed to be a mini but he's not so assupposed to be a mini but he's not so assupposed to be a mini but he's not so as mini um but I got him at six weeks oldmini um but I got him at six weeks oldmini um but I got him at six weeks old and he would keep me company and Iand he would keep me company and Iand he would keep me company and I started meditating actually uh and uh astarted meditating actually uh and uh astarted meditating actually uh and uh a friend recommended umfriend recommended umfriend recommended um TM and I would meditate 20 minutes inTM and I would meditate 20 minutes inTM and I would meditate 20 minutes in the morning 20 minutes in the eveningthe morning 20 minutes in the eveningthe morning 20 minutes in the evening and I also big believer in exercise andand I also big believer in exercise andand I also big believer in exercise and you know weightlifting and I playyou know weightlifting and I playyou know weightlifting and I play tennis and uh i' I had been this is nottennis and uh i' I had been this is nottennis and uh i' I had been this is not my first you know proximity to disastermy first you know proximity to disastermy first you know proximity to disaster I had another moment uh in my careerI had another moment uh in my careerI had another moment uh in my career like uh you know 200like uh you know 200like uh you know 200 uh two and I learned this method foruh two and I learned this method foruh two and I learned this method for dealing with these kind of moments whichdealing with these kind of moments whichdealing with these kind of moments which is uh you just make a little progressis uh you just make a little progressis uh you just make a little progress every day so today I'm going to wake upevery day so today I'm going to wake upevery day so today I'm going to wake up I'm going to make progress you know I'llI'm going to make progress you know I'llI'm going to make progress you know I'll make progress on the litigation I'llmake progress on the litigation I'llmake progress on the litigation I'll make progress on the portfolio I'll makemake progress on the portfolio I'll makemake progress on the portfolio I'll make progress with my life uh and progress
progress with my life uh and progressprogress with my life uh and progress compounds a bit like money compounds youcompounds a bit like money compounds youcompounds a bit like money compounds you don't see a lot of progress in the firstdon't see a lot of progress in the firstdon't see a lot of progress in the first few weeks but like 30 days in like okayfew weeks but like 30 days in like okayfew weeks but like 30 days in like okay you know like you can't look up theyou know like you can't look up theyou know like you can't look up the mountain top where you used to bemountain top where you used to bemountain top where you used to be because then you'll you'll give up rightbecause then you'll you'll give up rightbecause then you'll you'll give up right but you're just okay just make step bybut you're just okay just make step bybut you're just okay just make step by step by step uh and then 90 days instep by step uh and then 90 days instep by step uh and then 90 days in you're like okay I was way down thereyou're like okay I was way down thereyou're like okay I was way down there okay okay I don't look up just keepokay okay I don't look up just keepokay okay I don't look up just keep making you know progress progressmaking you know progress progressmaking you know progress progress progress and progress really doesprogress and progress really doesprogress and progress really does compound and and one day you wake up I'mcompound and and one day you wake up I'mcompound and and one day you wake up I'm like wow it's amazing how far I've comelike wow it's amazing how far I've comelike wow it's amazing how far I've come and if you look at a chart of Persianand if you look at a chart of Persianand if you look at a chart of Persian Square our company you know you can seeSquare our company you know you can seeSquare our company you know you can see the absolutethe absolutethe absolute bottom you can see where we were you canbottom you can see where we were you canbottom you can see where we were you can see the drop and you can see where wesee the drop and you can see where wesee the drop and you can see where we are now and and that huge drop that feltare now and and that huge drop that feltare now and and that huge drop that felt like a complete unbelievable disasterlike a complete unbelievable disasterlike a complete unbelievable disaster looks like a little bump on the curve
looks like a little bump on the curvelooks like a little bump on the curve and uh it really gives you perspectiveand uh it really gives you perspectiveand uh it really gives you perspective on these things you just have to poweron these things you just have to poweron these things you just have to power through and I think the key is you knowthrough and I think the key is you knowthrough and I think the key is you know I've always been fortunate like from aI've always been fortunate like from aI've always been fortunate like from a mental health point of view and you knowmental health point of view and you knowmental health point of view and you know nutrition sleep exercise and a littlenutrition sleep exercise and a littlenutrition sleep exercise and a little progress every day it's you know veryprogress every day it's you know veryprogress every day it's you know very that's it and you know good friends andthat's it and you know good friends andthat's it and you know good friends and family you know I had uh you knowfamily you know I had uh you knowfamily you know I had uh you know go take a walk with a friend every nightgo take a walk with a friend every nightgo take a walk with a friend every night um you know and a sister who loves meum you know and a sister who loves meum you know and a sister who loves me and parents who are supportive but theyand parents who are supportive but theyand parents who are supportive but they were you know they were all worriedwere you know they were all worriedwere you know they were all worried about their their son their brother youabout their their son their brother youabout their their son their brother you know it was it was a moment and also byknow it was it was a moment and also byknow it was it was a moment and also by the way the other thing to think aboutthe way the other thing to think aboutthe way the other thing to think about is uh when you recover from somethingis uh when you recover from somethingis uh when you recover from something like this you really appreciate it youlike this you really appreciate it youlike this you really appreciate it you know and uh and also the you know asknow and uh and also the you know asknow and uh and also the you know as much of the the media loves okay whenmuch of the the media loves okay whenmuch of the the media loves okay when some successful person falls they lovesome successful person falls they love
some successful person falls they love writing the story of success they lovewriting the story of success they lovewriting the story of success they love even more the story of failure but wheneven more the story of failure but wheneven more the story of failure but when you recover from that it's kind of likeyou recover from that it's kind of likeyou recover from that it's kind of like the American story yeah right you knowthe American story yeah right you knowthe American story yeah right you know America you know you think of the greatAmerica you know you think of the greatAmerica you know you think of the great entrepreneurs and how many failures theyentrepreneurs and how many failures theyentrepreneurs and how many failures they had before they succeeded you know howhad before they succeeded you know howhad before they succeeded you know how many rocket launches you know did SpaceXmany rocket launches you know did SpaceXmany rocket launches you know did SpaceX have explode on the pad right and thenhave explode on the pad right and thenhave explode on the pad right and then you look at success I mean that's whyyou look at success I mean that's whyyou look at success I mean that's why musk is so admired you mentioned Herbalmusk is so admired you mentioned Herbalmusk is so admired you mentioned Herbal Life can you take me through The Saga ofLife can you take me through The Saga ofLife can you take me through The Saga of that it's historicthat it's historicthat it's historic so we at persing Square um shorted veryso we at persing Square um shorted veryso we at persing Square um shorted very few stocks and the reason for that isfew stocks and the reason for that isfew stocks and the reason for that is short selling is just inherentlyshort selling is just inherentlyshort selling is just inherently treacherous uh so if you buy a stocktreacherous uh so if you buy a stocktreacherous uh so if you buy a stock it's called going long right you'reit's called going long right you'reit's called going long right you're buying something your worst casebuying something your worst casebuying something your worst case scenario you lose your whole investmentscenario you lose your whole investmentscenario you lose your whole investment you buy a stock for 100 goes to zero youyou buy a stock for 100 goes to zero youyou buy a stock for 100 goes to zero you lose $100 right per share you buy one
lose $100 right per share you buy onelose $100 right per share you buy one share you 100 your shortest stock at 100share you 100 your shortest stock at 100share you 100 your shortest stock at 100 what it means is you borrow the securitywhat it means is you borrow the securitywhat it means is you borrow the security from someone else the analogy I I gavefrom someone else the analogy I I gavefrom someone else the analogy I I gave that made it easy for people tothat made it easy for people tothat made it easy for people to understand and it's a bit like you thinkunderstand and it's a bit like you thinkunderstand and it's a bit like you think you know silver coins are going to goyou know silver coins are going to goyou know silver coins are going to go down in value and you have a frienddown in value and you have a frienddown in value and you have a friend who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880 uh silver silver US Dollars and youuh silver silver US Dollars and youuh silver silver US Dollars and you think you're going to go down value youthink you're going to go down value youthink you're going to go down value you say hey can I borrow you know 10 ofsay hey can I borrow you know 10 ofsay hey can I borrow you know 10 of those dollars from you he like sure butthose dollars from you he like sure butthose dollars from you he like sure but what are you going to pay me to borrowwhat are you going to pay me to borrowwhat are you going to pay me to borrow I'll pay you know um I'll pay youI'll pay you know um I'll pay youI'll pay you know um I'll pay you interest on your on the value of theinterest on your on the value of theinterest on your on the value of the dollars today so you borrow the dollarsdollars today so you borrow the dollarsdollars today so you borrow the dollars that are worth $100 each today you paythat are worth $100 each today you paythat are worth $100 each today you pay them interest while you're borrowingthem interest while you're borrowingthem interest while you're borrowing them and then you go sell them in thethem and then you go sell them in thethem and then you go sell them in the market for $100 that's what they'remarket for $100 that's what they'remarket for $100 that's what they're worth and then they go down in price toworth and then they go down in price toworth and then they go down in price to 50 you go back in you buy the silver
50 you go back in you buy the silver50 you go back in you buy the silver dollars back at $50 and you give themdollars back at $50 and you give themdollars back at $50 and you give them back to your friend your friend is fineback to your friend your friend is fineback to your friend your friend is fine you borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 backyou borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 backyou borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 back and he got interest in the meantime he'sand he got interest in the meantime he'sand he got interest in the meantime he's happy he made money on his coinhappy he made money on his coinhappy he made money on his coin collection you however made $50 timescollection you however made $50 timescollection you however made $50 times the 10 coins you made 500 bucks that'sthe 10 coins you made 500 bucks that'sthe 10 coins you made 500 bucks that's pretty good the problem with that ispretty good the problem with that ispretty good the problem with that is what if you sell them and they go fromwhat if you sell them and they go fromwhat if you sell them and they go from 100 to a th now you got have to go buy100 to a th now you got have to go buy100 to a th now you got have to go buy them back and you got to pay you knowthem back and you got to pay you knowthem back and you got to pay you know whatever uh $10,000 to buy back coinswhatever uh $10,000 to buy back coinswhatever uh $10,000 to buy back coins you know that you would you sold foryou know that you would you sold foryou know that you would you sold for $500 you're going to lose $9,500 and$500 you're going to lose $9,500 and$500 you're going to lose $9,500 and there's no limit right to how high athere's no limit right to how high athere's no limit right to how high a stock price can go companies go tostock price can go companies go tostock price can go companies go to three3 trillion dollar in value rightthree3 trillion dollar in value rightthree3 trillion dollar in value right Tesla a lot of people shorted TeslaTesla a lot of people shorted TeslaTesla a lot of people shorted Tesla saying oh it's overvalued he's neversaying oh it's overvalued he's neversaying oh it's overvalued he's never going to be able to make a successfulgoing to be able to make a successfulgoing to be able to make a successful electricelectricelectric car well I'm sure there people wentcar well I'm sure there people wentcar well I'm sure there people went bankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why we
bankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why webankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why we didn't short stocks but I was presenteddidn't short stocks but I was presenteddidn't short stocks but I was presented with this actually reporter that coveredwith this actually reporter that coveredwith this actually reporter that covered the other short investment we made earlythe other short investment we made earlythe other short investment we made early in the career a company called mbia camein the career a company called mbia camein the career a company called mbia came to me and said bill I found thisto me and said bill I found thisto me and said bill I found this incredible company you got to take aincredible company you got to take aincredible company you got to take a look at it it's a total fraud andlook at it it's a total fraud andlook at it it's a total fraud and they're scamming poor people and wethey're scamming poor people and wethey're scamming poor people and we should say that NB was a very successfulshould say that NB was a very successfulshould say that NB was a very successful short it was big part of it was that weshort it was big part of it was that weshort it was big part of it was that we used a different kind of instrument toused a different kind of instrument toused a different kind of instrument to short it where you we revers that sortshort it where you we revers that sortshort it where you we revers that sort of we made the investment asymmetric inof we made the investment asymmetric inof we made the investment asymmetric in our favor meaning put up a small amountour favor meaning put up a small amountour favor meaning put up a small amount of money if it works to make a fortuneof money if it works to make a fortuneof money if it works to make a fortune whereas Short Selling is you kind ofwhereas Short Selling is you kind ofwhereas Short Selling is you kind of sell something and you have to buy itsell something and you have to buy itsell something and you have to buy it back at a higher price urbal life didn'tback at a higher price urbal life didn'tback at a higher price urbal life didn't have the what's called credit the fallhave the what's called credit the fallhave the what's called credit the fall swaps that you could purchase not a bigswaps that you could purchase not a bigswaps that you could purchase not a big enough company didn't have enough debt
enough company didn't have enough debtenough company didn't have enough debt outstanding to be able to implement yououtstanding to be able to implement yououtstanding to be able to implement you had to short the stock in order to makehad to short the stock in order to makehad to short the stock in order to make it as successful to bet against theit as successful to bet against theit as successful to bet against the company and the more work I did on thecompany and the more work I did on thecompany and the more work I did on the company the more I was like oh my Godcompany the more I was like oh my Godcompany the more I was like oh my God this thing is an incredible scam youthis thing is an incredible scam youthis thing is an incredible scam you know they report to sell weight lossknow they report to sell weight lossknow they report to sell weight loss shakes uh but in reality they're sellingshakes uh but in reality they're sellingshakes uh but in reality they're selling you know kind of a fake business planyou know kind of a fake business planyou know kind of a fake business plan and the people that adopt it lose moneyand the people that adopt it lose moneyand the people that adopt it lose money and they they go after poor people theyand they they go after poor people theyand they they go after poor people they go after after actually in many casesgo after after actually in many casesgo after after actually in many cases undocumented immigrants who are pitchedundocumented immigrants who are pitchedundocumented immigrants who are pitched on the American dream opportunity andon the American dream opportunity andon the American dream opportunity and because they have few other optionsbecause they have few other optionsbecause they have few other options because they can't get legal employmentbecause they can't get legal employmentbecause they can't get legal employment they become R life Distributors and it'sthey become R life Distributors and it'sthey become R life Distributors and it's a business where you so-calleda business where you so-calleda business where you so-called multi-level marketing or P you knowmulti-level marketing or P you knowmulti-level marketing or P you know multi-level marketing is sort of the themulti-level marketing is sort of the themulti-level marketing is sort of the the the name for a legitimate uh companythe name for a legitimate uh company
the name for a legitimate uh company like this or it's a pyramid scheme wherelike this or it's a pyramid scheme wherelike this or it's a pyramid scheme where basically your sales are really onlybasically your sales are really onlybasically your sales are really only coming from people who are you convincecoming from people who are you convincecoming from people who are you convince to buy the product by getting them themto buy the product by getting them themto buy the product by getting them them into the business that's precisely whatinto the business that's precisely whatinto the business that's precisely what this company is and uh like okaythis company is and uh like okaythis company is and uh like okay shorting a pment scheme seems like oneshorting a pment scheme seems like oneshorting a pment scheme seems like one we'll make a bunch of money but you knowwe'll make a bunch of money but you knowwe'll make a bunch of money but you know two the world will be behind us becausetwo the world will be behind us becausetwo the world will be behind us because they're harming poor people you knowthey're harming poor people you knowthey're harming poor people you know Regulators will get interested in aRegulators will get interested in aRegulators will get interested in a company like this and we said you knowcompany like this and we said you knowcompany like this and we said you know the FDC is going to shut this thing downthe FDC is going to shut this thing downthe FDC is going to shut this thing down and we did a ton of work and I gave thisand we did a ton of work and I gave thisand we did a ton of work and I gave this sort of Epic presentation laying out allsort of Epic presentation laying out allsort of Epic presentation laying out all the facts stock got completely crushedthe facts stock got completely crushedthe facts stock got completely crushed and we were on our way and theand we were on our way and theand we were on our way and the government actually got interested earlygovernment actually got interested earlygovernment actually got interested early on launched an investigation prettyon launched an investigation prettyon launched an investigation pretty early SEC and other otherwise um butearly SEC and other otherwise um butearly SEC and other otherwise um but then uh a guy named Carl icon showed upthen uh a guy named Carl icon showed upthen uh a guy named Carl icon showed up and there's we have a little bit of a
and there's we have a little bit of aand there's we have a little bit of a backstory uh but his motivations herebackstory uh but his motivations herebackstory uh but his motivations here were not really principally driven bywere not really principally driven bywere not really principally driven by thinking Herbal Life was a good companythinking Herbal Life was a good companythinking Herbal Life was a good company he thought it was a good way to uh hurthe thought it was a good way to uh hurthe thought it was a good way to uh hurt me so he he basically bought a bunch ofme so he he basically bought a bunch ofme so he he basically bought a bunch of stock and said it was a really greatstock and said it was a really greatstock and said it was a really great company and you know Carl at least atcompany and you know Carl at least atcompany and you know Carl at least at the time threw his weight around a bitthe time threw his weight around a bitthe time threw his weight around a bit it was a credible investor had a lot ofit was a credible investor had a lot ofit was a credible investor had a lot of resources and uh that began the Saga soresources and uh that began the Saga soresources and uh that began the Saga so he was we should sayhe was we should sayhe was we should say uh a legendary investor himself I'd sayuh a legendary investor himself I'd sayuh a legendary investor himself I'd say legendary in a sense yes for sure anlegendary in a sense yes for sure anlegendary in a sense yes for sure an iconic iconic Carl icon oh that's veryiconic iconic Carl icon oh that's veryiconic iconic Carl icon oh that's very well done so definitely a iconicwell done so definitely a iconicwell done so definitely a iconic investor so what was the backstoryinvestor so what was the backstoryinvestor so what was the backstory between the two of you so uh I mentionedbetween the two of you so uh I mentionedbetween the two of you so uh I mentioned that I had another period of time wherethat I had another period of time wherethat I had another period of time where significant business challenges this wassignificant business challenges this wassignificant business challenges this was my first called Gotham partners and wemy first called Gotham partners and wemy first called Gotham partners and we had a court stop a transaction betweenhad a court stop a transaction betweenhad a court stop a transaction between some private a private company we owned
some private a private company we ownedsome private a private company we owned and a public company it's another longand a public company it's another longand a public company it's another long story if you want to go I would I wouldstory if you want to go I would I wouldstory if you want to go I would I would love to hear it as well um but it waslove to hear it as well um but it waslove to hear it as well um but it was really my deciding to wind up my formerreally my deciding to wind up my formerreally my deciding to wind up my former fund and we owned a big stake and afund and we owned a big stake and afund and we owned a big stake and a company called hallwood realy Partnerscompany called hallwood realy Partnerscompany called hallwood realy Partners which was a company that owned realwhich was a company that owned realwhich was a company that owned real estate assets and it was worth a lotestate assets and it was worth a lotestate assets and it was worth a lot more than where was of trading but itmore than where was of trading but itmore than where was of trading but it needed an activist to really unlock theneeded an activist to really unlock theneeded an activist to really unlock the value and we were in fact going out ofvalue and we were in fact going out ofvalue and we were in fact going out of business and didn't have the time or thebusiness and didn't have the time or thebusiness and didn't have the time or the resources to pursue itresources to pursue itresources to pursue it so I sold it to Carlso I sold it to Carlso I sold it to Carl icon uh but and I sold it to him at aicon uh but and I sold it to him at aicon uh but and I sold it to him at a premium to where the stock was trading Ipremium to where the stock was trading Ipremium to where the stock was trading I think the stock was like 66 I sold tothink the stock was like 66 I sold tothink the stock was like 66 I sold to them for 80 but it was worth aboutthem for 80 but it was worth aboutthem for 80 but it was worth about 150 and I said look uh and part of the150 and I said look uh and part of the150 and I said look uh and part of the deal was Carl's like look I'll give youdeal was Carl's like look I'll give youdeal was Carl's like look I'll give you schmuck Insurance you know I'll make youschmuck Insurance you know I'll make youschmuck Insurance you know I'll make you sure you don't look bad and I had
sure you don't look bad and I hadsure you don't look bad and I had another deal at a higher price withoutanother deal at a higher price withoutanother deal at a higher price without schmuck insurance but I deal with Carlschmuck insurance but I deal with Carlschmuck insurance but I deal with Carl at a lower price with schmuck insuranceat a lower price with schmuck insuranceat a lower price with schmuck insurance and the way the schmuck Insurance wentand the way the schmuck Insurance wentand the way the schmuck Insurance went he said look Bill if I sell the stockhe said look Bill if I sell the stockhe said look Bill if I sell the stock and next three years uh you know for aand next three years uh you know for aand next three years uh you know for a higher price I'll give you 50% of myhigher price I'll give you 50% of myhigher price I'll give you 50% of my profit that's pretty goodprofit that's pretty goodprofit that's pretty good deal so we made that deal and because Ideal so we made that deal and because Ideal so we made that deal and because I was dealing with Carl icon who had awas dealing with Carl icon who had awas dealing with Carl icon who had a reputation for you know being difficultreputation for you know being difficultreputation for you know being difficult I was you know very focused on theI was you know very focused on theI was you know very focused on the agreement and we didn't want him to beagreement and we didn't want him to beagreement and we didn't want him to be able to be cute so the agreement said ifable to be cute so the agreement said ifable to be cute so the agreement said if we sell if he sells or otherwisewe sell if he sells or otherwisewe sell if he sells or otherwise transfers his shares and I we came uptransfers his shares and I we came uptransfers his shares and I we came up with a definition that include everywith a definition that include everywith a definition that include every version version of sale okay cuz youversion version of sale okay cuz youversion version of sale okay cuz you know it'sknow it'sknow it's Carl uh well he then uh buys the StakCarl uh well he then uh buys the StakCarl uh well he then uh buys the Stak and then makes a bid for theand then makes a bid for theand then makes a bid for the company and you know plan is for him tocompany and you know plan is for him tocompany and you know plan is for him to get the company and he bids like 120 a
get the company and he bids like 120 aget the company and he bids like 120 a share and the company hires Morganshare and the company hires Morganshare and the company hires Morgan Stanley to sellStanley to sellStanley to sell itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130 eventually gets sold I don't remembereventually gets sold I don't remembereventually gets sold I don't remember the exact price let's say $145 a sharethe exact price let's say $145 a sharethe exact price let's say $145 a share and Carl's not the winningand Carl's not the winningand Carl's not the winning bidder and he sells this stock or losesbidder and he sells this stock or losesbidder and he sells this stock or loses or transfers his shares for $145 a shareor transfers his shares for $145 a shareor transfers his shares for $145 a share so he owes actually our investors theso he owes actually our investors theso he owes actually our investors the difference between 145 and 80 uh timesdifference between 145 and 80 uh timesdifference between 145 and 80 uh times 50% and I had like you lawyers never50% and I had like you lawyers never50% and I had like you lawyers never like you to put like a arithmeticlike you to put like a arithmeticlike you to put like a arithmetic example I put like a formula you knowexample I put like a formula you knowexample I put like a formula you know like out of a math book in in thelike out of a math book in in thelike out of a math book in in the document so there can be no confusion itdocument so there can be no confusion itdocument so there can be no confusion it was only an eight-page really simplewas only an eight-page really simplewas only an eight-page really simple agreement so the deal closes and he'sagreement so the deal closes and he'sagreement so the deal closes and he's supposed to pay us in two business dayssupposed to pay us in two business dayssupposed to pay us in two business days or three business days I wait a fewor three business days I wait a fewor three business days I wait a few business days no money comes in I callbusiness days no money comes in I callbusiness days no money comes in I call Carl I'm like Carl um congratulations onCarl I'm like Carl um congratulations onCarl I'm like Carl um congratulations on on the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill Ion the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill I
on the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill I think Carl just want to remind you Ithink Carl just want to remind you Ithink Carl just want to remind you I know it's been a few years but um youknow it's been a few years but um youknow it's been a few years but um you know you we have this agreement rememberknow you we have this agreement rememberknow you we have this agreement remember the schmuck insurance it's like yeah Ithe schmuck insurance it's like yeah Ithe schmuck insurance it's like yeah I said well you owe us our schmucksaid well you owe us our schmucksaid well you owe us our schmuck insurance he what do you mean I didn'tinsurance he what do you mean I didn'tinsurance he what do you mean I didn't sell my shares I said do you do yousell my shares I said do you do yousell my shares I said do you do you still have the shares he says no I saidstill have the shares he says no I saidstill have the shares he says no I said what happened to them well the companywhat happened to them well the companywhat happened to them well the company did a merger for cashdid a merger for cashdid a merger for cash and they took away my shares but Iand they took away my shares but Iand they took away my shares but I didn't selldidn't selldidn't sell them you understand what happened so Ithem you understand what happened so Ithem you understand what happened so I had I said car I'm going to have to suehad I said car I'm going to have to suehad I said car I'm going to have to sue you said sue me I'm G to sue you heyou said sue me I'm G to sue you heyou said sue me I'm G to sue you he says so I sued him and uh the legalsays so I sued him and uh the legalsays so I sued him and uh the legal system in America takes can take somesystem in America takes can take somesystem in America takes can take some time and what he would do is we sued andtime and what he would do is we sued andtime and what he would do is we sued and we won in the in the whatever New Yorkwe won in the in the whatever New Yorkwe won in the in the whatever New York SupremeSupremeSupreme Court uh and then heCourt uh and then heCourt uh and then he appealed and he you can appeal like 6appealed and he you can appeal like 6appealed and he you can appeal like 6 months after the case we waited to themonths after the case we waited to themonths after the case we waited to the 179th day and then he would appeal and179th day and then he would appeal and
179th day and then he would appeal and then we fought it at the next level andthen we fought it at the next level andthen we fought it at the next level and then he would appeal and he appealed allthen he would appeal and he appealed allthen he would appeal and he appealed all the way to Supreme Court of course thethe way to Supreme Court of course thethe way to Supreme Court of course the Supreme Court wouldn't take the case itSupreme Court wouldn't take the case itSupreme Court wouldn't take the case it took years now we had as part of ourtook years now we had as part of ourtook years now we had as part of our agreement we got 9% interest on theagreement we got 9% interest on theagreement we got 9% interest on the money that he owed us so I viewed as mymoney that he owed us so I viewed as mymoney that he owed us so I viewed as my Carl icon money market account with aCarl icon money market account with aCarl icon money market account with a much higher interest rate and eventuallymuch higher interest rate and eventuallymuch higher interest rate and eventually I won what was the amount just tiny nowI won what was the amount just tiny nowI won what was the amount just tiny now it was material to my investors so myit was material to my investors so myit was material to my investors so my first fund I wound it down but I wantedfirst fund I wound it down but I wantedfirst fund I wound it down but I wanted to maximize everything for my investorsto maximize everything for my investorsto maximize everything for my investors right these are the people back me at 26right these are the people back me at 26right these are the people back me at 26 years old I was right out of businessyears old I was right out of businessyears old I was right out of business school had no experience and theyschool had no experience and theyschool had no experience and they supported me so I'm going to go to thesupported me so I'm going to go to thesupported me so I'm going to go to the end of the Earth forend of the Earth forend of the Earth for them uh and 4 and a half millionthem uh and 4 and a half millionthem uh and 4 and a half million relative to our our fund at the end wasrelative to our our fund at the end wasrelative to our our fund at the end was maybe 400 million so it wasn't a hugemaybe 400 million so it wasn't a hugemaybe 400 million so it wasn't a huge number but it was a big percentage of
number but it was a big percentage ofnumber but it was a big percentage of what was left after I sold all ourwhat was left after I sold all ourwhat was left after I sold all our liquid security so I was fighting for itliquid security so I was fighting for itliquid security so I was fighting for it so we got four and a half million plusso we got four and a half million plusso we got four and a half million plus interest for 8 years or something that'sinterest for 8 years or something that'sinterest for 8 years or something that's how long the litigation took so we gothow long the litigation took so we gothow long the litigation took so we got aboutaboutabout double uh so he owed me 9 million whichdouble uh so he owed me 9 million whichdouble uh so he owed me 9 million which to Carl icon who had probably a $20to Carl icon who had probably a $20to Carl icon who had probably a $20 billion net worth at the time this wasbillion net worth at the time this wasbillion net worth at the time this was nothing but to me it was like okay thisnothing but to me it was like okay thisnothing but to me it was like okay this my Investor's money I'm going to get itmy Investor's money I'm going to get itmy Investor's money I'm going to get it back um and so you know eventually weback um and so you know eventually weback um and so you know eventually we won eventually he paid and then hewon eventually he paid and then hewon eventually he paid and then he called me he said Billcalled me he said Billcalled me he said Bill congratulations now we can becongratulations now we can becongratulations now we can be friends and we can we can invest do somefriends and we can we can invest do somefriends and we can we can invest do some investing together I'm like Carl fuckinvesting together I'm like Carl fuckinvesting together I'm like Carl fuck you you actually said fuck you yes I'myou you actually said fuck you yes I'myou you actually said fuck you yes I'm not that kind of person generally but uhnot that kind of person generally but uhnot that kind of person generally but uh you know he made eight years to pay meyou know he made eight years to pay meyou know he made eight years to pay me not me even me my investors money theynot me even me my investors money theynot me even me my investors money they owed so I yeah so he probably didn'towed so I yeah so he probably didn'towed so I yeah so he probably didn't like that so he kind of hung around in
like that so he kind of hung around inlike that so he kind of hung around in the weeds waiting for an opportunity andthe weeds waiting for an opportunity andthe weeds waiting for an opportunity and then from there I you know startedthen from there I you know startedthen from there I you know started purging we had kind of straight line uppurging we had kind of straight line uppurging we had kind of straight line up you know up the first 12 years we couldyou know up the first 12 years we couldyou know up the first 12 years we could do nothing wrong thendo nothing wrong thendo nothing wrong then Valiant Herbal Life right uh he sees anValiant Herbal Life right uh he sees anValiant Herbal Life right uh he sees an opportunityopportunityopportunity and he buys the stock he figures he'sand he buys the stock he figures he'sand he buys the stock he figures he's going to run me off the road and so thatgoing to run me off the road and so thatgoing to run me off the road and so that was the beginning of that and kind ofwas the beginning of that and kind ofwas the beginning of that and kind of the the moment uh and I think it's thethe the moment uh and I think it's thethe the moment uh and I think it's the I'm told by CNBC it's the most watchedI'm told by CNBC it's the most watchedI'm told by CNBC it's the most watched uh segment in business televisionuh segment in business televisionuh segment in business television history uh they're interviewing me abouthistory uh they're interviewing me abouthistory uh they're interviewing me about the urbal Life Investment on CNBC andthe urbal Life Investment on CNBC andthe urbal Life Investment on CNBC and then Carl icon calls into the show andthen Carl icon calls into the show andthen Carl icon calls into the show and we have kind of a interestingwe have kind of a interestingwe have kind of a interesting conversation where he calls me all kindsconversation where he calls me all kindsconversation where he calls me all kinds of names and stuff so it's it was aof names and stuff so it's it was aof names and stuff so it's it was a moment it was a moment in my life itmoment it was a moment in my life itmoment it was a moment in my life it wasn't public information that he waswasn't public information that he waswasn't public information that he was long on herb life he didn't yet discloselong on herb life he didn't yet discloselong on herb life he didn't yet disclose he had a stake yeah but he was just
he had a stake yeah but he was justhe had a stake yeah but he was just telling me how stupid I was to be shorttelling me how stupid I was to be shorttelling me how stupid I was to be short this company so for him it wasn't aboutthis company so for him it wasn't aboutthis company so for him it wasn't about the fundamentals of the company it wasthe fundamentals of the company it wasthe fundamentals of the company it was about it was just personal 100% is thereabout it was just personal 100% is thereabout it was just personal 100% is there part of you that regrets saying fuck youpart of you that regrets saying fuck youpart of you that regrets saying fuck you on that phone call to Carl ionno I I generally have generally have nono I I generally have generally have no regrets uh um because I'm very happyregrets uh um because I'm very happyregrets uh um because I'm very happy with where I am now and I feel like youwith where I am now and I feel like youwith where I am now and I feel like you know it's a bit like you know you stepknow it's a bit like you know you stepknow it's a bit like you know you step on the the butterfly in the farest andon the the butterfly in the farest andon the the butterfly in the farest and the world changes because you know everythe world changes because you know everythe world changes because you know every action has a reaction you know if you'reaction has a reaction you know if you'reaction has a reaction you know if you're happy with who you are where you are inhappy with who you are where you are inhappy with who you are where you are in life every decision you've made good orlife every decision you've made good orlife every decision you've made good or bad over the course of your life got youbad over the course of your life got youbad over the course of your life got you to precisely where you are I wouldn'tto precisely where you are I wouldn'tto precisely where you are I wouldn't change anything he said you lost moneychange anything he said you lost moneychange anything he said you lost money on Herbal Life so what so he did theon Herbal Life so what so he did theon Herbal Life so what so he did the long-term battle what he did is he helong-term battle what he did is he helong-term battle what he did is he he got on the board of the company and usedgot on the board of the company and usedgot on the board of the company and used the company's Financial Resources plus
the company's Financial Resources plusthe company's Financial Resources plus his stake in the business to squeezehis stake in the business to squeezehis stake in the business to squeeze squeeze us and a squeeze in Shortsqueeze us and a squeeze in Shortsqueeze us and a squeeze in Short Selling is where you restrict the supplySelling is where you restrict the supplySelling is where you restrict the supply of the Securities so that there's aof the Securities so that there's aof the Securities so that there's a scarcity and then you encourage peoplescarcity and then you encourage peoplescarcity and then you encourage people to buy the stock and you drive the stockto buy the stock and you drive the stockto buy the stock and you drive the stock up and as I explained before you shortup and as I explained before you shortup and as I explained before you short those coins at 10 they go to 100 you canthose coins at 10 they go to 100 you canthose coins at 10 they go to 100 you can lose theoretically an unlimited amountlose theoretically an unlimited amountlose theoretically an unlimited amount of money and that's scary that's why weof money and that's scary that's why weof money and that's scary that's why we don't short stocks that's why I didn'tdon't short stocks that's why I didn'tdon't short stocks that's why I didn't short stocks before this but uh this wasshort stocks before this but uh this wasshort stocks before this but uh this was unfortunately I had to have the personalunfortunately I had to have the personalunfortunately I had to have the personal lesson so how much was for him personallesson so how much was for him personallesson so how much was for him personal versus part of sort of the game ofversus part of sort of the game ofversus part of sort of the game of investing well he thought he could makeinvesting well he thought he could makeinvesting well he thought he could make money doing this he wouldn't have donemoney doing this he wouldn't have donemoney doing this he wouldn't have done it if he did otherwise he thought hisit if he did otherwise he thought hisit if he did otherwise he thought his bully pulpit his ability to create abully pulpit his ability to create abully pulpit his ability to create a short squeeze his control over theshort squeeze his control over theshort squeeze his control over the company uh would enable him to achievecompany uh would enable him to achieve
company uh would enable him to achieve this uh and he made a billion we lost athis uh and he made a billion we lost athis uh and he made a billion we lost a billion so you think it was a financialbillion so you think it was a financialbillion so you think it was a financial decision not a personal it was adecision not a personal it was adecision not a personal it was a personal decision to pursue it but hepersonal decision to pursue it but hepersonal decision to pursue it but he was waiting for an opportunity he couldwas waiting for an opportunity he couldwas waiting for an opportunity he could make money at our expense and was kindmake money at our expense and was kindmake money at our expense and was kind of a brilliant opportunity for him nowof a brilliant opportunity for him nowof a brilliant opportunity for him now the irony is well first of all the FTCthe irony is well first of all the FTCthe irony is well first of all the FTC found a few interesting facts so one thefound a few interesting facts so one thefound a few interesting facts so one the government launched an investigationgovernment launched an investigationgovernment launched an investigation they ended up settling with the companythey ended up settling with the companythey ended up settling with the company and the company paid $220 million inand the company paid $220 million inand the company paid $220 million in fines uh I I met a professor fromfines uh I I met a professor fromfines uh I I met a professor from Berkeley a couple years ago who told meBerkeley a couple years ago who told meBerkeley a couple years ago who told me that he had been hired by the governmentthat he had been hired by the governmentthat he had been hired by the government as their expert on Herbal Life and heas their expert on Herbal Life and heas their expert on Herbal Life and he got access to all their data was able togot access to all their data was able togot access to all their data was able to prove that they're a pyment scheme butprove that they're a pyment scheme butprove that they're a pyment scheme but the government ultimately settled withthe government ultimately settled withthe government ultimately settled with Carl because they were afraid they couldCarl because they were afraid they couldCarl because they were afraid they could you know they could possibly lose inyou know they could possibly lose inyou know they could possibly lose in court so they settled with him uh but if
court so they settled with him uh but ifcourt so they settled with him uh but if you look at the stock if we' been ableyou look at the stock if we' been ableyou look at the stock if we' been able to stay short the entire time we wouldto stay short the entire time we wouldto stay short the entire time we would have made a bunch of money because thehave made a bunch of money because thehave made a bunch of money because the you know stock had a$6 billion dollyou know stock had a$6 billion dollyou know stock had a$6 billion doll market cap and we shorted it today it'smarket cap and we shorted it today it'smarket cap and we shorted it today it's probably a billion a billion and a halfprobably a billion a billion and a halfprobably a billion a billion and a half so you left the short POS or whateverso you left the short POS or whateverso you left the short POS or whatever that's called Clos covered closed it outthat's called Clos covered closed it outthat's called Clos covered closed it out yeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbalyeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbalyeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbal Life that was the resetting moment forLife that was the resetting moment forLife that was the resetting moment for the firm because it would justthe firm because it would justthe firm because it would just psychologically and you know the beautypsychologically and you know the beautypsychologically and you know the beauty of investing is you don't need to makeof investing is you don't need to makeof investing is you don't need to make it back the way you lost it right youit back the way you lost it right youit back the way you lost it right you can just take your loss by the waycan just take your loss by the waycan just take your loss by the way losses are valuable and that thelosses are valuable and that thelosses are valuable and that the government allows you to take a tax lossgovernment allows you to take a tax lossgovernment allows you to take a tax loss and that can shelter other gains and weand that can shelter other gains and weand that can shelter other gains and we just refocused can you say one thing youjust refocused can you say one thing youjust refocused can you say one thing you really like about Carl icon and onereally like about Carl icon and onereally like about Carl icon and one thing you really don't like about himthing you really don't like about him
thing you really don't like about him sure so uh he's a very Charming guy sosure so uh he's a very Charming guy sosure so uh he's a very Charming guy so in the midst of all this uh at thein the midst of all this uh at thein the midst of all this uh at the hallwood one he took me out for dinnerhallwood one he took me out for dinnerhallwood one he took me out for dinner to his favorite Italian restaurantto his favorite Italian restaurantto his favorite Italian restaurant really yeah uh we were in the middle ofreally yeah uh we were in the middle ofreally yeah uh we were in the middle of the litigation to see if he couldthe litigation to see if he couldthe litigation to see if he could resolve it and he offered 10 million toresolve it and he offered 10 million toresolve it and he offered 10 million to my favoritemy favoritemy favorite charity uh the problem was that itcharity uh the problem was that itcharity uh the problem was that it wasn't my money it was my Investor'swasn't my money it was my Investor'swasn't my money it was my Investor's money so I couldn't settle with him onmoney so I couldn't settle with him onmoney so I couldn't settle with him on that basis uh but uh you know I had thethat basis uh but uh you know I had thethat basis uh but uh you know I had the chance to spend real time with him atchance to spend real time with him atchance to spend real time with him at dinner he's funny he's charismatic he'sdinner he's funny he's charismatic he'sdinner he's funny he's charismatic he's got incredible stories um and you knowgot incredible stories um and you knowgot incredible stories um and you know actually I made peace with him over timeactually I made peace with him over timeactually I made peace with him over time we had a little hug out on CNBC even hadwe had a little hug out on CNBC even hadwe had a little hug out on CNBC even had him to my house believe it or not um Ihim to my house believe it or not um Ihim to my house believe it or not um I hosted a uh something called the financehosted a uh something called the financehosted a uh something called the finance cup which is a tennis tournament betweencup which is a tennis tournament betweencup which is a tennis tournament between uh people in finance in Europe and theuh people in finance in Europe and theuh people in finance in Europe and the us and we had the uh the event at myus and we had the uh the event at my
us and we had the uh the event at my house and one guy thought to invite Carlhouse and one guy thought to invite Carlhouse and one guy thought to invite Carl icon and so we had Carl ion there toicon and so we had Carl ion there toicon and so we had Carl ion there to present Awards and and again I have topresent Awards and and again I have topresent Awards and and again I have to say I kind of like the guy so um but wassay I kind of like the guy so um but wassay I kind of like the guy so um but was I didn't like him much during this isI didn't like him much during this isI didn't like him much during this is there because at least from The Outsiderthere because at least from The Outsiderthere because at least from The Outsider perspective there's a bit of a personalperspective there's a bit of a personalperspective there's a bit of a personal VengeanceVengeanceVengeance here or anger can build up do you everhere or anger can build up do you everhere or anger can build up do you ever worry the personal attacks betweenworry the personal attacks betweenworry the personal attacks between powerful investors can Cloud yourpowerful investors can Cloud yourpowerful investors can Cloud your judgment or what is the right financialjudgment or what is the right financialjudgment or what is the right financial decision I think it's possible but againdecision I think it's possible but againdecision I think it's possible but again I try to be extremely economicallyI try to be extremely economicallyI try to be extremely economically rational and actually the last sevenrational and actually the last sevenrational and actually the last seven years been quite peaceful you I reallyyears been quite peaceful you I reallyyears been quite peaceful you I really have not been uh an activist in the oldhave not been uh an activist in the oldhave not been uh an activist in the old uh form uh for many years and the vastuh form uh for many years and the vastuh form uh for many years and the vast majority of even our activistmajority of even our activistmajority of even our activist Investments historically were veryInvestments historically were veryInvestments historically were very polite respectful cases the Press ofpolite respectful cases the Press ofpolite respectful cases the Press of course focuses on the the morecourse focuses on the the morecourse focuses on the the more interesting ones like Chipotle was one
interesting ones like Chipotle was oneinteresting ones like Chipotle was one of the best investments we ever made uhof the best investments we ever made uhof the best investments we ever made uh we you know we got four of eight boardwe you know we got four of eight boardwe you know we got four of eight board seats and we worked with management itseats and we worked with management itseats and we worked with management it was a great outcome I don't think everwas a great outcome I don't think everwas a great outcome I don't think ever been a story about it and the stocks upbeen a story about it and the stocks upbeen a story about it and the stocks up you know almost 10 times from the timeyou know almost 10 times from the timeyou know almost 10 times from the time we hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's notwe hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's notwe hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's not interesting because there was no battleinteresting because there was no battleinteresting because there was no battle whereas Herbal Life of course was likewhereas Herbal Life of course was likewhereas Herbal Life of course was like an epic battle battle even Canadianan epic battle battle even Canadianan epic battle battle even Canadian Pacific so you know for a period therePacific so you know for a period therePacific so you know for a period there you most people when they meet me inyou most people when they meet me inyou most people when they meet me in person they like wow B you seem like aperson they like wow B you seem like aperson they like wow B you seem like a really nice guy but I thought you knowreally nice guy but I thought you knowreally nice guy but I thought you know so uh but things have been pretty calmso uh but things have been pretty calmso uh but things have been pretty calm for the last uh seven years of coursefor the last uh seven years of coursefor the last uh seven years of course there's more than just the investingthere's more than just the investingthere's more than just the investing that your life is about especiallythat your life is about especiallythat your life is about especially recently let me just ask you aboutrecently let me just ask you aboutrecently let me just ask you about what's going on in the world first uhwhat's going on in the world first uhwhat's going on in the world first uh what was your reaction and what is yourwhat was your reaction and what is your
what was your reaction and what is your reactionreactionreaction thoughts uh with respect to the Octoberthoughts uh with respect to the Octoberthoughts uh with respect to the October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know it's a sad world that we live in uh thatit's a sad world that we live in uh thatit's a sad world that we live in uh that uh one we have terrorists and two thatuh one we have terrorists and two thatuh one we have terrorists and two that we could have uh such barbaric terrorismwe could have uh such barbaric terrorismwe could have uh such barbaric terrorism and yeah just a reminder of that soand yeah just a reminder of that soand yeah just a reminder of that so there's several things I can ask herethere's several things I can ask herethere's several things I can ask here first on the your views on the thefirst on the your views on the thefirst on the your views on the the prospects of the Middle East but also onprospects of the Middle East but also onprospects of the Middle East but also on um the reaction to this war and um inum the reaction to this war and um inum the reaction to this war and um in the United States especially onthe United States especially onthe United States especially on University campuses so first let me justUniversity campuses so first let me justUniversity campuses so first let me just ask you've said that you're Proask you've said that you're Proask you've said that you're Pro Palestinian can you explain what youPalestinian can you explain what youPalestinian can you explain what you mean by that you know with all of mymean by that you know with all of mymean by that you know with all of my posts about Israel you I'm obviouslyposts about Israel you I'm obviouslyposts about Israel you I'm obviously very supportive of the country of Israelvery supportive of the country of Israelvery supportive of the country of Israel Israel's right to exist Israel's rightIsrael's right to exist Israel's rightIsrael's right to exist Israel's right to defendto defendto defend itself my Arab friends my Palestinianitself my Arab friends my Palestinianitself my Arab friends my Palestinian friends you know we kind of saying heyfriends you know we kind of saying heyfriends you know we kind of saying hey Bill where are you uh you know whatBill where are you uh you know what
Bill where are you uh you know what about Palestinian lives and you I was uhabout Palestinian lives and you I was uhabout Palestinian lives and you I was uh pretty early in my life a guy namedpretty early in my life a guy namedpretty early in my life a guy named Marty parrat who's been important to meMarty parrat who's been important to meMarty parrat who's been important to me over the course of my life a professorover the course of my life a professorover the course of my life a professor first investor in my fund introduced mefirst investor in my fund introduced mefirst investor in my fund introduced me to ner uh asked me when I was right outto ner uh asked me when I was right outto ner uh asked me when I was right out of school to join this uh nonprofitof school to join this uh nonprofitof school to join this uh nonprofit called the Jerusalem Foundation whichcalled the Jerusalem Foundation whichcalled the Jerusalem Foundation which was a a charitable Foundation thatwas a a charitable Foundation thatwas a a charitable Foundation that supported Teddy Kik when he was mayor ofsupported Teddy Kik when he was mayor ofsupported Teddy Kik when he was mayor of Jerusalem I ended up becoming theJerusalem I ended up becoming theJerusalem I ended up becoming the youngest chairman of the Jerusalemyoungest chairman of the Jerusalemyoungest chairman of the Jerusalem foundation in my 30s and I spent somefoundation in my 30s and I spent somefoundation in my 30s and I spent some time in Israel and uh the earlytime in Israel and uh the earlytime in Israel and uh the early philanthropic stuff I did uh with thephilanthropic stuff I did uh with thephilanthropic stuff I did uh with the Jerusalem Foundation I thing I was mostJerusalem Foundation I thing I was mostJerusalem Foundation I thing I was most interested in was was uh kind of theinterested in was was uh kind of theinterested in was was uh kind of the Palestinian the plight of thePalestinian the plight of thePalestinian the plight of the Palestinians and kind of peacefulPalestinians and kind of peacefulPalestinians and kind of peaceful coexistence and so I had kind of ancoexistence and so I had kind of ancoexistence and so I had kind of an early kind of perspective and you knowearly kind of perspective and you knowearly kind of perspective and you know as chairman of the Jalem Foundation Ias chairman of the Jalem Foundation I
as chairman of the Jalem Foundation I would go into you know Arab communitieswould go into you know Arab communitieswould go into you know Arab communities I would meet with families in theirI would meet with families in theirI would meet with families in their homes you know you get a sense of thehomes you know you get a sense of thehomes you know you get a sense of the the humanity of of a people and I carethe humanity of of a people and I carethe humanity of of a people and I care about Humanity uh I generally take theabout Humanity uh I generally take theabout Humanity uh I generally take the side of people who've been disadvantagedside of people who've been disadvantagedside of people who've been disadvantaged you know almost all of our philanthropicyou know almost all of our philanthropicyou know almost all of our philanthropic work has been in that capacity so it'swork has been in that capacity so it'swork has been in that capacity so it's sort of mysort of mysort of my natural uh perspective but I don't takenatural uh perspective but I don't takenatural uh perspective but I don't take the side of terrorists everthe side of terrorists everthe side of terrorists ever obviously and uh you the whole thing isobviously and uh you the whole thing isobviously and uh you the whole thing is just a tragedy so to you this is aboutjust a tragedy so to you this is aboutjust a tragedy so to you this is about Hamas not about Palestine yes I mean youHamas not about Palestine yes I mean youHamas not about Palestine yes I mean you know the the problem of course is whenknow the the problem of course is whenknow the the problem of course is when Hamas controls you know for the lastHamas controls you know for the lastHamas controls you know for the last almost 20 years has controlled Gaza youalmost 20 years has controlled Gaza youalmost 20 years has controlled Gaza you know they've including the educationknow they've including the educationknow they've including the education system they're educating you know yousystem they're educating you know yousystem they're educating you know you see these you know training videos ofsee these you know training videos ofsee these you know training videos of kindergarteners uh indoctrinating themkindergarteners uh indoctrinating themkindergarteners uh indoctrinating them into hating Jews and Israel uh so it'sinto hating Jews and Israel uh so it's
into hating Jews and Israel uh so it's it's uh and of course you don't like toit's uh and of course you don't like toit's uh and of course you don't like to see uh Palestinians celebrating you knowsee uh Palestinians celebrating you knowsee uh Palestinians celebrating you know some of those early videos of Octobersome of those early videos of Octobersome of those early videos of October 7th with you know dead bodies in the7th with you know dead bodies in the7th with you know dead bodies in the back of trucks and people you knowback of trucks and people you knowback of trucks and people you know cheering uh so it's it's a reallycheering uh so it's it's a reallycheering uh so it's it's a really unfortunate situation but I you know Iunfortunate situation but I you know Iunfortunate situation but I you know I think about you know a Palestinian lifethink about you know a Palestinian lifethink about you know a Palestinian life isisis important as valuable as a Jewish Lifeimportant as valuable as a Jewish Lifeimportant as valuable as a Jewish Life as a American life and you know what doas a American life and you know what doas a American life and you know what do people really want they want a placepeople really want they want a placepeople really want they want a place they want a home uh they want to be ablethey want a home uh they want to be ablethey want a home uh they want to be able to feed their family they want a job uhto feed their family they want a job uhto feed their family they want a job uh that generates the resources to feedthat generates the resources to feedthat generates the resources to feed their family they want their kids totheir family they want their kids totheir family they want their kids to have a better life than they've had uhhave a better life than they've had uhhave a better life than they've had uh they want peace I think these are basicthey want peace I think these are basicthey want peace I think these are basic human things I'm sure the vast majorityhuman things I'm sure the vast majorityhuman things I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians share these views uh butof Palestinians share these views uh butof Palestinians share these views uh but it's such an embedded situation withit's such an embedded situation withit's such an embedded situation with hatred and as I say indoctrination andhatred and as I say indoctrination andhatred and as I say indoctrination and then you know going back to incentives
then you know going back to incentivesthen you know going back to incentives you know terrorists generate theiryou know terrorists generate theiryou know terrorists generate their resources by committing terrorism andresources by committing terrorism andresources by committing terrorism and that's how they get funding uh andthat's how they get funding uh andthat's how they get funding uh and that's you know there's a lot ofthat's you know there's a lot ofthat's you know there's a lot of graft uh you know there it's agraft uh you know there it's agraft uh you know there it's a plutocracy right the top of theplutocracy right the top of theplutocracy right the top of the terrorist pyramid you know if you acceptterrorist pyramid you know if you acceptterrorist pyramid you know if you accept the numbers that are in the Press youthe numbers that are in the Press youthe numbers that are in the Press you the top leaders you know have billionsthe top leaders you know have billionsthe top leaders you know have billions of dollars you know 40 billion or so hasof dollars you know 40 billion or so hasof dollars you know 40 billion or so has gone into Gaza over the last and and thegone into Gaza over the last and and thegone into Gaza over the last and and the West Bank over the last 30 years aWest Bank over the last 30 years aWest Bank over the last 30 years a number like that uh and a lot of it'snumber like that uh and a lot of it'snumber like that uh and a lot of it's disappeared into some combination ofdisappeared into some combination ofdisappeared into some combination of corruption or tunnels or weapons and thecorruption or tunnels or weapons and thecorruption or tunnels or weapons and the tragedy is you know you look at whattragedy is you know you look at whattragedy is you know you look at what Singapore has achieved in the last 30Singapore has achieved in the last 30Singapore has achieved in the last 30 years right do you think that's stillyears right do you think that's stillyears right do you think that's still possible if we look into the future ofpossible if we look into the future ofpossible if we look into the future of 10 20 50 years from now absolutely so10 20 50 years from now absolutely so10 20 50 years from now absolutely so not justnot justnot just peace but peace comes withpeace but peace comes withpeace but peace comes with prosperity uh um you know people are you
prosperity uh um you know people are youprosperity uh um you know people are you know under the leadership of terroristsknow under the leadership of terroristsknow under the leadership of terrorists you're not going to have prosperity andyou're not going to have prosperity andyou're not going to have prosperity and you're not going to have peace and Iyou're not going to have peace and Iyou're not going to have peace and I think the you know the Israelis withdrewthink the you know the Israelis withdrewthink the you know the Israelis withdrew in 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas tookin 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas tookin 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas took control of the situation that would thatcontrol of the situation that would thatcontrol of the situation that would that should never have been allowed to happenshould never have been allowed to happenshould never have been allowed to happen um and I think you know if you thinkum and I think you know if you thinkum and I think you know if you think about I I have the opportunity to spendabout I I have the opportunity to spendabout I I have the opportunity to spend a what call it an hour with Henrya what call it an hour with Henrya what call it an hour with Henry Kissinger uh a few months before heKissinger uh a few months before heKissinger uh a few months before he passed away and we were talking about uhpassed away and we were talking about uhpassed away and we were talking about uh Gaza or in the early stage of the war heGaza or in the early stage of the war heGaza or in the early stage of the war he said look you know this issaid look you know this issaid look you know this is not uh you can think about Gaza as thenot uh you can think about Gaza as thenot uh you can think about Gaza as the as a test of a two-state solution is notas a test of a two-state solution is notas a test of a two-state solution is not looking good these were his words uh solooking good these were his words uh solooking good these were his words uh so the next time round you look Palestinianthe next time round you look Palestinianthe next time round you look Palestinian people should have their own state butpeople should have their own state butpeople should have their own state but it can't be a state where you know 40it can't be a state where you know 40it can't be a state where you know 40 billion resources goes in and is spentbillion resources goes in and is spent
billion resources goes in and is spent on weaponry and missiles and Rocketson weaponry and missiles and Rocketson weaponry and missiles and Rockets going into Israel and I I do think agoing into Israel and I I do think agoing into Israel and I I do think a consorconsorconsor of the Gulf States you know the Saudisof the Gulf States you know the Saudisof the Gulf States you know the Saudis and others have to ultimately overseeand others have to ultimately overseeand others have to ultimately oversee the governance of this region if I thinkthe governance of this region if I thinkthe governance of this region if I think if if that can happen I think you canif if that can happen I think you canif if that can happen I think you can have peace you can havehave peace you can havehave peace you can have Prosperity um and uh you know I'mProsperity um and uh you know I'mProsperity um and uh you know I'm fundamentally an optimist so Coalitionfundamentally an optimist so Coalitionfundamentally an optimist so Coalition of uhof uhof uh governance governance matters you knowgovernance governance matters you knowgovernance governance matters you know going back to what we talked aboutgoing back to what we talked aboutgoing back to what we talked about before and you know that that kind ofbefore and you know that that kind ofbefore and you know that that kind of approach can give the people a chance toapproach can give the people a chance toapproach can give the people a chance to 100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has accomplished with you know Nomads in theaccomplished with you know Nomads in theaccomplished with you know Nomads in the desert right and that's become a majordesert right and that's become a majordesert right and that's become a major uh it's a tourist destination Gaza coulduh it's a tourist destination Gaza coulduh it's a tourist destination Gaza could have been a touristhave been a touristhave been a tourist destination Take Me Through The Saga ofdestination Take Me Through The Saga ofdestination Take Me Through The Saga of UniversityUniversityUniversity presidents testifying on this topic onpresidents testifying on this topic onpresidents testifying on this topic on the topic of uh protests on collegethe topic of uh protests on collegethe topic of uh protests on college campuses protest that call for the
campuses protest that call for thecampuses protest that call for the genocide of Jewish people and thegenocide of Jewish people and thegenocide of Jewish people and the UniversityUniversity presidents uh maybe you can describe itpresidents uh maybe you can describe itpresidents uh maybe you can describe it more precisely but they failmore precisely but they failmore precisely but they fail tototo denounce the calls fordenounce the calls fordenounce the calls for genocide so it begins on October 8thgenocide so it begins on October 8thgenocide so it begins on October 8th probably uhprobably uhprobably uh and you know you can do a compare andand you know you can do a compare andand you know you can do a compare and contrast with how Dartmouth managed uhcontrast with how Dartmouth managed uhcontrast with how Dartmouth managed uh the events of October 7th and thethe events of October 7th and thethe events of October 7th and the aftermath and how Harvardaftermath and how Harvardaftermath and how Harvard did and on October 8th or shortlydid and on October 8th or shortlydid and on October 8th or shortly thereafter uh you know the Dartmouththereafter uh you know the Dartmouththereafter uh you know the Dartmouth president who had been in her job forpresident who had been in her job forpresident who had been in her job for precisely the same number of months thatprecisely the same number of months thatprecisely the same number of months that the Harvard president had been in herthe Harvard president had been in herthe Harvard president had been in her job the first thing she did is she gotjob the first thing she did is she gotjob the first thing she did is she got the most important professors of Middlethe most important professors of Middlethe most important professors of Middle East studies who were Arab and who wereEast studies who were Arab and who wereEast studies who were Arab and who were Jews uh and they convened them and heldJews uh and they convened them and heldJews uh and they convened them and held a you know an open session Q&A fora you know an open session Q&A fora you know an open session Q&A for students to talk about what's going onstudents to talk about what's going onstudents to talk about what's going on in the Middle East and began anin the Middle East and began anin the Middle East and began an opportunity for common understandingopportunity for common understanding
opportunity for common understanding among the student body and Dartmouth hasamong the student body and Dartmouth hasamong the student body and Dartmouth has been a relatively benign environment onbeen a relatively benign environment onbeen a relatively benign environment on this issue uh and students are able tothis issue uh and students are able tothis issue uh and students are able to do work and there aren't disruptivedo work and there aren't disruptivedo work and there aren't disruptive protests with people with bullhornsprotests with people with bullhornsprotests with people with bullhorns walking into classrooms interfering withwalking into classrooms interfering withwalking into classrooms interfering with you know people pay today $882,000 ayou know people pay today $882,000 ayou know people pay today $882,000 a year which itself is crazy to go toyear which itself is crazy to go toyear which itself is crazy to go to Harvard but imagine your family borrowsHarvard but imagine your family borrowsHarvard but imagine your family borrows the money or you borrow the money as athe money or you borrow the money as athe money or you borrow the money as a student and your learning is disruptedstudent and your learning is disruptedstudent and your learning is disrupted by constant protest and the universityby constant protest and the universityby constant protest and the university does nothing you know when George Floyddoes nothing you know when George Floyddoes nothing you know when George Floyd died you know the Harvard presidentdied you know the Harvard presidentdied you know the Harvard president wrote a very uh strong letter denouncingwrote a very uh strong letter denouncingwrote a very uh strong letter denouncing what had taken place and you knowwhat had taken place and you knowwhat had taken place and you know calling this an important moment incalling this an important moment incalling this an important moment in American history and uh took itAmerican history and uh took itAmerican history and uh took it incredibly seriously her first letterincredibly seriously her first letterincredibly seriously her first letter about October 7th was not that let's putabout October 7th was not that let's putabout October 7th was not that let's put it that way and then her second letterit that way and then her second letterit that way and then her second letter was not that and then ultimately you
was not that and then ultimately youwas not that and then ultimately you know she was sort of forced by the boardknow she was sort of forced by the boardknow she was sort of forced by the board or the pressure to make a more publicor the pressure to make a more publicor the pressure to make a more public statement U but it was clear that it wasstatement U but it was clear that it wasstatement U but it was clear that it was hard for her to come to an understandinghard for her to come to an understandinghard for her to come to an understanding of uh of this terrorist act and then theof uh of this terrorist act and then theof uh of this terrorist act and then the protest erupted on campus and theyprotest erupted on campus and theyprotest erupted on campus and they started out recently benign uh and thenstarted out recently benign uh and thenstarted out recently benign uh and then the protesters got more and morethe protesters got more and morethe protesters got more and more aggressive in terms of violatingaggressive in terms of violatingaggressive in terms of violating University rules on things like bullyingUniversity rules on things like bullyingUniversity rules on things like bullying and the university did nothing and thatand the university did nothing and thatand the university did nothing and that obviously for the Jewish students theobviously for the Jewish students theobviously for the Jewish students the Israeli students the Israeli facultyIsraeli students the Israeli facultyIsraeli students the Israeli faculty Jewish faculty created an incrediblyJewish faculty created an incrediblyJewish faculty created an incredibly uncomfortable environment and theuncomfortable environment and theuncomfortable environment and the president seemed indifferent and youpresident seemed indifferent and youpresident seemed indifferent and you know I went up to campus and I met withknow I went up to campus and I met withknow I went up to campus and I met with hundreds of students in small groups andhundreds of students in small groups andhundreds of students in small groups and larger groups and they're like Bill whylarger groups and they're like Bill whylarger groups and they're like Bill why is why is the president doing nothingis why is the president doing nothingis why is the president doing nothing why is the administration doing nothingwhy is the administration doing nothing
why is the administration doing nothing and that was really the beginning andand that was really the beginning andand that was really the beginning and that you know I reached out to thethat you know I reached out to thethat you know I reached out to the president reached out to the the boardpresident reached out to the the boardpresident reached out to the the board of Harvard I said look this thing isof Harvard I said look this thing isof Harvard I said look this thing is heading the wrong direction and you needheading the wrong direction and you needheading the wrong direction and you need to fix it and I have some ideas love toto fix it and I have some ideas love toto fix it and I have some ideas love to share and uh I got the Heisman as theyshare and uh I got the Heisman as theyshare and uh I got the Heisman as they say you know they just kept pushing offsay you know they just kept pushing offsay you know they just kept pushing off the opportunity for me to meet with thethe opportunity for me to meet with thethe opportunity for me to meet with the president and um meet with thepresident and um meet with thepresident and um meet with the board and at a certain point in time Iboard and at a certain point in time Iboard and at a certain point in time I pushed you know I'm kind of a activistpushed you know I'm kind of a activistpushed you know I'm kind of a activist when he pushed me it reminded me of youwhen he pushed me it reminded me of youwhen he pushed me it reminded me of you know like early days of activism where Iknow like early days of activism where Iknow like early days of activism where I couldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to tocouldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to tocouldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to to return my call I couldn't get the CEO ofreturn my call I couldn't get the CEO ofreturn my call I couldn't get the CEO of CEO of Harvard you know to take aCEO of Harvard you know to take aCEO of Harvard you know to take a meeting uh and then finally I spoke tomeeting uh and then finally I spoke tomeeting uh and then finally I spoke to the chairman of the board Woman by thethe chairman of the board Woman by thethe chairman of the board Woman by the name of Penny pritzer who I you knowname of Penny pritzer who I you knowname of Penny pritzer who I you know knew from on a business school boardknew from on a business school boardknew from on a business school board with her and it was as I describ one of
with her and it was as I describ one ofwith her and it was as I describ one of the more disappointing conversations ofthe more disappointing conversations ofthe more disappointing conversations of my life and it did not seem she seemed amy life and it did not seem she seemed amy life and it did not seem she seemed a bit like uh if you will deer in thebit like uh if you will deer in thebit like uh if you will deer in the headlights they they couldn't do thisheadlights they they couldn't do thisheadlights they they couldn't do this they couldn't do that um the law wasthey couldn't do that um the law wasthey couldn't do that um the law was preventing them from doing variouspreventing them from doing variouspreventing them from doing various things and that led to my first letterthings and that led to my first letterthings and that led to my first letter to the university and I sort of endedto the university and I sort of endedto the university and I sort of ended the letter uh you know sort of givingthe letter uh you know sort of givingthe letter uh you know sort of giving this president of Harvard had darare tothis president of Harvard had darare tothis president of Harvard had darare to be great speech this is your opportunitybe great speech this is your opportunitybe great speech this is your opportunity you know you can fixyou know you can fixyou know you can fix this uh this could be yourthis uh this could be yourthis uh this could be your legacy and I sent it to the I emailed itlegacy and I sent it to the I emailed itlegacy and I sent it to the I emailed it to the president and the board members Ito the president and the board members Ito the president and the board members I whose email addresses I had I posted itwhose email addresses I had I posted itwhose email addresses I had I posted it on Twitter and I got no response noon Twitter and I got no response noon Twitter and I got no response no acknowledgement nothing and in fact theacknowledgement nothing and in fact theacknowledgement nothing and in fact the open dialogue I had uh with a couple ofopen dialogue I had uh with a couple ofopen dialogue I had uh with a couple of people on the board basically got shutpeople on the board basically got shutpeople on the board basically got shut down after that and that led to letterdown after that and that led to letterdown after that and that led to letter number
numbernumber two and then ult and then when the uhtwo and then ult and then when the uhtwo and then ult and then when the uh Congress led by leisCongress led by leisCongress led by leis stonic uh announced an investigation ofstonic uh announced an investigation ofstonic uh announced an investigation of anti-Semitism on campus and concernanti-Semitism on campus and concernanti-Semitism on campus and concern about uh you know violations of law theabout uh you know violations of law theabout uh you know violations of law the president was called to testify alongpresident was called to testify alongpresident was called to testify along with two other you know the president ofwith two other you know the president ofwith two other you know the president of MIT um you know the President ofMIT um you know the President ofMIT um you know the President of University of Pennsylvania who wereUniversity of Pennsylvania who wereUniversity of Pennsylvania who were having similar issues on campus Ihaving similar issues on campus Ihaving similar issues on campus I reached out to the president of Harvardreached out to the president of Harvardreached out to the president of Harvard and said well one the Israeli governmentand said well one the Israeli governmentand said well one the Israeli government had gotten in touch and offered thehad gotten in touch and offered thehad gotten in touch and offered the opportunity uh for me to see the Hamasopportunity uh for me to see the Hamasopportunity uh for me to see the Hamas if you will GoPro film and I said youif you will GoPro film and I said youif you will GoPro film and I said you know what I'd love to show it at Harvardknow what I'd love to show it at Harvardknow what I'd love to show it at Harvard and they thought that would be greatand they thought that would be greatand they thought that would be great idea and so I partnered with the head ofidea and so I partnered with the head ofidea and so I partnered with the head of Harvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershyHarvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershyHarvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershy and uh we were putting the film up onand uh we were putting the film up onand uh we were putting the film up on campus and I thought you know if thecampus and I thought you know if thecampus and I thought you know if the president were to see this would itpresident were to see this would itpresident were to see this would it would give her a lot of perspective on
would give her a lot of perspective onwould give her a lot of perspective on what happened and she should see itwhat happened and she should see itwhat happened and she should see it before herbefore herbefore her testimony and so I reached out to her ortestimony and so I reached out to her ortestimony and so I reached out to her or actually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uhactually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uhactually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uh he was told she'd be out of town andhe was told she'd be out of town andhe was told she'd be out of town and couldn't see it um and then I reachedcouldn't see it um and then I reachedcouldn't see it um and then I reached out to her again said look I'll I'llout to her again said look I'll I'llout to her again said look I'll I'll facilitate your attendance in the in thefacilitate your attendance in the in thefacilitate your attendance in the in the Congress you know come see the film I'llCongress you know come see the film I'llCongress you know come see the film I'll fly you down that was rejected and thenfly you down that was rejected and thenfly you down that was rejected and then shesheshe testified and I watched you know a goodtestified and I watched you know a goodtestified and I watched you know a good percentage 80% of the testimony of allpercentage 80% of the testimony of allpercentage 80% of the testimony of all three presidents and it was anthree presidents and it was anthree presidents and it was an embarrassment to the countryembarrassment to the countryembarrassment to the country embarrassment to the universities youembarrassment to the universities youembarrassment to the universities you know they were evasive they didn'tknow they were evasive they didn'tknow they were evasive they didn't answer questions they were rude theyanswer questions they were rude theyanswer questions they were rude they smirked you know they looked you knowsmirked you know they looked you knowsmirked you know they looked you know very were disrespectful to to ourvery were disrespectful to to ourvery were disrespectful to to our Congress and uh and then of course thereCongress and uh and then of course thereCongress and uh and then of course there was that several minutes where finallywas that several minutes where finallywas that several minutes where finally at least toonic was not getting answersat least toonic was not getting answers
at least toonic was not getting answers to her questions and she said you knowto her questions and she said you knowto her questions and she said you know let me be you know kind of clear what iflet me be you know kind of clear what iflet me be you know kind of clear what if protesters were calling for genocide forprotesters were calling for genocide forprotesters were calling for genocide for the Jews does that violate your rules onthe Jews does that violate your rules onthe Jews does that violate your rules on bullying and harassment and the three ofbullying and harassment and the three ofbullying and harassment and the three of them basically gave the same answer youthem basically gave the same answer youthem basically gave the same answer you know it depends on the context and notknow it depends on the context and notknow it depends on the context and not until they actually executed it on theuntil they actually executed it on theuntil they actually executed it on the genocide does the University have thegenocide does the University have thegenocide does the University have the right to intervene and the the thingright to intervene and the the thingright to intervene and the the thing that perhaps bothered me the most wasthat perhaps bothered me the most wasthat perhaps bothered me the most was the incredible hypocrisy you knowthe incredible hypocrisy you knowthe incredible hypocrisy you know Harvard was you know each of theseHarvard was you know each of theseHarvard was you know each of these universities are ranked by this entityuniversities are ranked by this entityuniversities are ranked by this entity called fire which is a nonprofit thatcalled fire which is a nonprofit thatcalled fire which is a nonprofit that focuses on free speech on campus andfocuses on free speech on campus andfocuses on free speech on campus and Harvard uh has been in the bottomHarvard uh has been in the bottomHarvard uh has been in the bottom quartile for The Last 5 Years andquartile for The Last 5 Years andquartile for The Last 5 Years and dropped to last before October 7th outdropped to last before October 7th outdropped to last before October 7th out of like 250 I should mention brieflyof like 250 I should mention brieflyof like 250 I should mention briefly that I've interview on this podcast thethat I've interview on this podcast thethat I've interview on this podcast the founder of fire and the current head of
founder of fire and the current head offounder of fire and the current head of fire we discussed this at length umfire we discussed this at length umfire we discussed this at length um including running for the board ofincluding running for the board ofincluding running for the board of Harvard and the whole procedure of allHarvard and the whole procedure of allHarvard and the whole procedure of all that it's it's quite a fascinatingthat it's it's quite a fascinatingthat it's it's quite a fascinating investigation of free speech who forinvestigation of free speech who forinvestigation of free speech who for people who care about Free Speechpeople who care about Free Speechpeople who care about Free Speech absolutism that's a good episode toabsolutism that's a good episode toabsolutism that's a good episode to listen to Because those folks kind oflisten to Because those folks kind oflisten to Because those folks kind of fight for this idea it's a it's afight for this idea it's a it's afight for this idea it's a it's a difficult idea actually to internalizedifficult idea actually to internalizedifficult idea actually to internalize what does free speech in collegewhat does free speech in collegewhat does free speech in college campuses look like Harvard has become acampuses look like Harvard has become acampuses look like Harvard has become a place where free speech is not toleratedplace where free speech is not toleratedplace where free speech is not tolerated on campus or at least free speech that'son campus or at least free speech that'son campus or at least free speech that's not part of the accepted dialogue or younot part of the accepted dialogue or younot part of the accepted dialogue or you know this whole notion of speech codesknow this whole notion of speech codesknow this whole notion of speech codes and microaggressions really emerged onand microaggressions really emerged onand microaggressions really emerged on the elite you know the Harvard Yale uhthe elite you know the Harvard Yale uhthe elite you know the Harvard Yale uh campuses of the world and uh you knowcampuses of the world and uh you knowcampuses of the world and uh you know the president of Harvard's uh thenthe president of Harvard's uh thenthe president of Harvard's uh then president of Harvard's explanation forpresident of Harvard's explanation forpresident of Harvard's explanation for why you know you could call for the
why you know you could call for thewhy you know you could call for the genocide of the Jewish people on campusgenocide of the Jewish people on campusgenocide of the Jewish people on campus was Harvard's commitment to freewas Harvard's commitment to freewas Harvard's commitment to free expressionexpressionexpression and you know one of the moreand you know one of the moreand you know one of the more hypocritical statements of all time andhypocritical statements of all time andhypocritical statements of all time and you really can't have it both waysyou really can't have it both waysyou really can't have it both ways either Harvard has to be a place whereeither Harvard has to be a place whereeither Harvard has to be a place where it's a free speech she she basicallyit's a free speech she she basicallyit's a free speech she she basically said we're a free speech absolutistsaid we're a free speech absolutistsaid we're a free speech absolutist place which is why we have to allow thisplace which is why we have to allow thisplace which is why we have to allow this and Harvard could not be further fromand Harvard could not be further fromand Harvard could not be further from that and so that was a a big part of itthat and so that was a a big part of itthat and so that was a a big part of it and I I I uh I was in the uh Barberand I I I uh I was in the uh Barberand I I I uh I was in the uh Barber chair if you will getting haircut and uhchair if you will getting haircut and uhchair if you will getting haircut and uh I had a guy on my team send me the threeI had a guy on my team send me the threeI had a guy on my team send me the three minute section I said cut that line ofminute section I said cut that line ofminute section I said cut that line of questioning and I put out a a littlequestioning and I put out a a littlequestioning and I put out a a little tweet on that and call my greatest hitstweet on that and call my greatest hitstweet on that and call my greatest hits of of of of posts got something like 110of of of of posts got something like 110of of of of posts got something like 110 million views and and you know everyonemillion views and and you know everyonemillion views and and you know everyone looked at this and said what is wronglooked at this and said what is wronglooked at this and said what is wrong with you know Universitywith you know Universitywith you know University campuses and and their leadership and
campuses and and their leadership andcampuses and and their leadership and their governance by the way you know intheir governance by the way you know intheir governance by the way you know in a way this whole conversation's beena way this whole conversation's beena way this whole conversation's been about governance Harvard has aabout governance Harvard has aabout governance Harvard has a disastrous governance structure which isdisastrous governance structure which isdisastrous governance structure which is why we have the problem we have and justwhy we have the problem we have and justwhy we have the problem we have and just to linger on the theto linger on the theto linger on the the testimony you mention you know smirkstestimony you mention you know smirkstestimony you mention you know smirks and this kind of stuff and you mentionand this kind of stuff and you mentionand this kind of stuff and you mention dare to be great I myself I'm kind of adare to be great I myself I'm kind of adare to be great I myself I'm kind of a sucker for great leadership and thosesucker for great leadership and thosesucker for great leadership and those moments you mentioned Churchill or so onmoments you mentioned Churchill or so onmoments you mentioned Churchill or so on even great speeches people talk down oneven great speeches people talk down oneven great speeches people talk down on speeches like it's uh maybe just wordsspeeches like it's uh maybe just wordsspeeches like it's uh maybe just words but I think speeches can define abut I think speeches can define abut I think speeches can define a culture andculture andculture and Define a place Define a people that canDefine a place Define a people that canDefine a place Define a people that can inspire and I think actually theinspire and I think actually theinspire and I think actually the testimony before Congress could havetestimony before Congress could havetestimony before Congress could have been an opportunity to redefine whatbeen an opportunity to redefine whatbeen an opportunity to redefine what Harvard is dared to be great for daredHarvard is dared to be great for daredHarvard is dared to be great for dared to be a great leader president Harvardto be a great leader president Harvardto be a great leader president Harvard had a huge opportunity because she wenthad a huge opportunity because she wenthad a huge opportunity because she went third right the first two gave the
third right the first two gave thethird right the first two gave the world's most disastrous answers to theworld's most disastrous answers to theworld's most disastrous answers to the question and she literally just copiedquestion and she literally just copiedquestion and she literally just copied their answer which is itself uh you knowtheir answer which is itself uh you knowtheir answer which is itself uh you know kind of ironic in light of ultimatelykind of ironic in light of ultimatelykind of ironic in light of ultimately what happened it's tough because uhwhat happened it's tough because uhwhat happened it's tough because uh you can get busy as a president as ayou can get busy as a president as ayou can get busy as a president as a leader and so on there's these meetingsleader and so on there's these meetingsleader and so on there's these meetings so you think Congress maybe you'reso you think Congress maybe you'reso you think Congress maybe you're smirking at the Ridiculousness of thesmirking at the Ridiculousness of thesmirking at the Ridiculousness of the meeting you need tomeeting you need tomeeting you need to remember that many of these areremember that many of these areremember that many of these are opportunities to like give a speech of aopportunities to like give a speech of aopportunities to like give a speech of a Life Time sure like that if there isLife Time sure like that if there isLife Time sure like that if there is principles which you want to see a anprinciples which you want to see a anprinciples which you want to see a an institution become and embody in theinstitution become and embody in theinstitution become and embody in the next several decades there'snext several decades there'snext several decades there's opportunities to do that and you as aopportunities to do that and you as aopportunities to do that and you as a great leader also need to have a sensegreat leader also need to have a sensegreat leader also need to have a sense of when is the opportunity to do thatof when is the opportunity to do thatof when is the opportunity to do that and October 7th really woke up theand October 7th really woke up theand October 7th really woke up the world uh on all sides honestly likeworld uh on all sides honestly likeworld uh on all sides honestly like there is serious issue going on here andthere is serious issue going on here andthere is serious issue going on here and then the protests woke up the university
then the protests woke up the universitythen the protests woke up the university there's a serious issue going on herethere's a serious issue going on herethere's a serious issue going on here it's an opportunity to speak on freeit's an opportunity to speak on freeit's an opportunity to speak on free speech and on genocidespeech and on genocidespeech and on genocide bothbothboth yes do you see the criticism that youyes do you see the criticism that youyes do you see the criticism that you you are a billionaireyou are a billionaireyou are a billionaire donor and you sort of used your powerdonor and you sort of used your powerdonor and you sort of used your power and financial influence unfairly toand financial influence unfairly toand financial influence unfairly to affect the governing structure ofaffect the governing structure ofaffect the governing structure of Harvard in this case first of all I IHarvard in this case first of all I IHarvard in this case first of all I I never threatened to use Financial othernever threatened to use Financial othernever threatened to use Financial other resources the only thing I did here wasresources the only thing I did here wasresources the only thing I did here was wrote I wrote public letters I spokewrote I wrote public letters I spokewrote I wrote public letters I spoke privately to a couple members of theprivately to a couple members of theprivately to a couple members of the board I spoke for 45 minutes to theboard I spoke for 45 minutes to theboard I spoke for 45 minutes to the chairman none of those conversationschairman none of those conversationschairman none of those conversations were effective or went anywhere as farwere effective or went anywhere as farwere effective or went anywhere as far as I could tell I think my public uhas I could tell I think my public uhas I could tell I think my public uh letters and and then some of the posts Iletters and and then some of the posts Iletters and and then some of the posts I did twet yeah uh and that you know thatdid twet yeah uh and that you know thatdid twet yeah uh and that you know that little uh 3 minute uh video excerpt hadlittle uh 3 minute uh video excerpt hadlittle uh 3 minute uh video excerpt had it had anit had anit had an impact um but it wasn't about I mean youimpact um but it wasn't about I mean youimpact um but it wasn't about I mean you can criticize me for being a billionaire
can criticize me for being a billionairecan criticize me for being a billionaire but that had you know it was really thebut that had you know it was really thebut that had you know it was really the words uh it's a bit like again goingwords uh it's a bit like again goingwords uh it's a bit like again going back to the corporate analogy it's notback to the corporate analogy it's notback to the corporate analogy it's not the fact that you own 5% of the companythe fact that you own 5% of the companythe fact that you own 5% of the company that causes people to vote in your favorthat causes people to vote in your favorthat causes people to vote in your favor it's the fact that your ideas are rightit's the fact that your ideas are rightit's the fact that your ideas are right and I think you know I was disappointedand I think you know I was disappointedand I think you know I was disappointed after the Cong pressional testimony theafter the Cong pressional testimony theafter the Cong pressional testimony the board of Harvard said that they wereboard of Harvard said that they wereboard of Harvard said that they were 100% behind unanimously 100% behind100% behind unanimously 100% behind100% behind unanimously 100% behind president gay and so clearly I waspresident gay and so clearly I waspresident gay and so clearly I was ineffective and ultimately what took herineffective and ultimately what took herineffective and ultimately what took her down was uh other I would say activistsdown was uh other I would say activistsdown was uh other I would say activists who identified issues with academicwho identified issues with academicwho identified issues with academic Integrity uh and then she lost theIntegrity uh and then she lost theIntegrity uh and then she lost the confidence of the faculty and once thatconfidence of the faculty and once thatconfidence of the faculty and once that happens it's hard to stay uh and Ihappens it's hard to stay uh and Ihappens it's hard to stay uh and I wanted her to be fired basically or bewanted her to be fired basically or bewanted her to be fired basically or be forced to resign because of failures offorced to resign because of failures offorced to resign because of failures of leadership because would have sent aleadership because would have sent aleadership because would have sent a message about the importance ofmessage about the importance of
message about the importance of leadership you know failure to stop aleadership you know failure to stop aleadership you know failure to stop a emergence of anti-Semitism on campus andemergence of anti-Semitism on campus andemergence of anti-Semitism on campus and you know there's some news today theyou know there's some news today theyou know there's some news today the protests are getting worse is there someprotests are getting worse is there someprotests are getting worse is there some tension between free speech on collegetension between free speech on collegetension between free speech on college campuses and disciplining students forcampuses and disciplining students forcampuses and disciplining students for calls of genocide yes there's certainlycalls of genocide yes there's certainlycalls of genocide yes there's certainly a tension and I think first of all um Ia tension and I think first of all um Ia tension and I think first of all um I think free speech is incrediblythink free speech is incrediblythink free speech is incredibly important and I'm on the side I'm a lotimportant and I'm on the side I'm a lotimportant and I'm on the side I'm a lot closer to absolutism on Free Speech thancloser to absolutism on Free Speech thancloser to absolutism on Free Speech than otherwise the issue I had was theotherwise the issue I had was theotherwise the issue I had was the hypocrisy right they were restrictinghypocrisy right they were restrictinghypocrisy right they were restricting other kinds of speech uh on campusother kinds of speech uh on campusother kinds of speech uh on campus principally conservative speechprincipally conservative speechprincipally conservative speech conservative views um so it wasn't aconservative views um so it wasn't aconservative views um so it wasn't a free speech absolutist uh campus and thefree speech absolutist uh campus and thefree speech absolutist uh campus and the protests were actually quite threateningprotests were actually quite threateningprotests were actually quite threatening to students and there are limits to evento students and there are limits to evento students and there are limits to even absolutist free speech and they beginabsolutist free speech and they beginabsolutist free speech and they begin where people feel you know intimidationwhere people feel you know intimidationwhere people feel you know intimidation harassment and you know threat to bodily
harassment and you know threat to bodilyharassment and you know threat to bodily harm Etc you know that kind of speech isharm Etc you know that kind of speech isharm Etc you know that kind of speech is generally uh again it's pretty technicalgenerally uh again it's pretty technicalgenerally uh again it's pretty technical uh but is people feel like they're anuh but is people feel like they're anuh but is people feel like they're an imminent harm by virtue of the protestimminent harm by virtue of the protestimminent harm by virtue of the protest that speech is at risk of not meetingthat speech is at risk of not meetingthat speech is at risk of not meeting the standards for Free Speech butthe standards for Free Speech butthe standards for Free Speech but Harvard is a privateHarvard is a privateHarvard is a private Corporation and as a private CorporationCorporation and as a private CorporationCorporation and as a private Corporation they can put on what restrictions theythey can put on what restrictions theythey can put on what restrictions they want and Harvard had introduced only awant and Harvard had introduced only awant and Harvard had introduced only a few months before bullying andfew months before bullying andfew months before bullying and harassment policies and that's whyharassment policies and that's whyharassment policies and that's why representative stefanic focused on doesrepresentative stefanic focused on doesrepresentative stefanic focused on does this it's not like she said this callingthis it's not like she said this callingthis it's not like she said this calling for genocide against the Jews violatefor genocide against the Jews violatefor genocide against the Jews violate your free speech policy she says it'syour free speech policy she says it'syour free speech policy she says it's calling for genocide against the Jewscalling for genocide against the Jewscalling for genocide against the Jews violate your policies on bullying herviolate your policies on bullying herviolate your policies on bullying her harassment and I think everyone lookedharassment and I think everyone lookedharassment and I think everyone looked at this when they said it depends on theat this when they said it depends on theat this when they said it depends on the context and they said look if youcontext and they said look if youcontext and they said look if you replace Jews with some other ethnic
replace Jews with some other ethnicreplace Jews with some other ethnic group students have been who've used thegroup students have been who've used thegroup students have been who've used the n-word for example have been thrown offn-word for example have been thrown offn-word for example have been thrown off campus were suspended you know studentscampus were suspended you know studentscampus were suspended you know students who've uh you know hate speech directedwho've uh you know hate speech directedwho've uh you know hate speech directed at uh lgbtq people has led toat uh lgbtq people has led toat uh lgbtq people has led to disciplinary action but you knowdisciplinary action but you knowdisciplinary action but you know attacking spitting on Jewish students orattacking spitting on Jewish students orattacking spitting on Jewish students or you know kind of roughing them up a bityou know kind of roughing them up a bityou know kind of roughing them up a bit uh seemed like you know we calling foruh seemed like you know we calling foruh seemed like you know we calling for their elimination didn't seem to violatetheir elimination didn't seem to violatetheir elimination didn't seem to violate the policiy so it's uh you know look Ithe policiy so it's uh you know look Ithe policiy so it's uh you know look I think a university should be a placethink a university should be a placethink a university should be a place where you have broad views and openwhere you have broad views and openwhere you have broad views and open viewpoints and Broadviewpoints and Broadviewpoints and Broad discussion um but it should also be adiscussion um but it should also be adiscussion um but it should also be a place where students don't feelplace where students don't feelplace where students don't feel threatened going to class where theirthreatened going to class where theirthreatened going to class where their learning is not interrupted when finallearning is not interrupted when finallearning is not interrupted when final exams are not interrupted with uh by youexams are not interrupted with uh by youexams are not interrupted with uh by you know people coming in and with loudknow people coming in and with loudknow people coming in and with loud protest students asked me when I went upprotest students asked me when I went upprotest students asked me when I went up there what would you do if you were
there what would you do if you werethere what would you do if you were Harvard president I said and this wasHarvard president I said and this wasHarvard president I said and this was before I knew what was happening on thebefore I knew what was happening on thebefore I knew what was happening on the depart with campus I said I would Idepart with campus I said I would Idepart with campus I said I would I convene everyone together this isconvene everyone together this isconvene everyone together this is Harvard we have access to the best MindsHarvard we have access to the best MindsHarvard we have access to the best Minds in the world let's have a betterin the world let's have a betterin the world let's have a better understanding of the history let'sunderstanding of the history let'sunderstanding of the history let's understand the backdrop let's focus onunderstand the backdrop let's focus onunderstand the backdrop let's focus on Solutions let's bring Arab and JewishSolutions let's bring Arab and JewishSolutions let's bring Arab and Jewish and Israeli students together let's formand Israeli students together let's formand Israeli students together let's form groups to create communication that'sgroups to create communication that'sgroups to create communication that's how you solve this kind of problem andhow you solve this kind of problem andhow you solve this kind of problem and none of that stuff has been done it'snone of that stuff has been done it'snone of that stuff has been done it's not that hard do you think this revealsnot that hard do you think this revealsnot that hard do you think this reveals a deeper uha deeper uha deeper uh problem in terms of ideology in theproblem in terms of ideology in theproblem in terms of ideology in the governance of hargovernance of hargovernance of har ininin the maybe the culturethe maybe the culturethe maybe the culture Harvard yes so on governance theHarvard yes so on governance theHarvard yes so on governance the governance structure is a disaster sogovernance structure is a disaster sogovernance structure is a disaster so the way it works today is Harvard hasthe way it works today is Harvard hasthe way it works today is Harvard has two principal boards there's the boardtwo principal boards there's the boardtwo principal boards there's the board of the corporation the so-called fellowsof the corporation the so-called fellows
of the corporation the so-called fellows of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12 independent directors and the presidentindependent directors and the presidentindependent directors and the president uh there's no shareholder vote there'suh there's no shareholder vote there'suh there's no shareholder vote there's no proxy system it's really ano proxy system it's really ano proxy system it's really a self-perpetuating board that elects itself-perpetuating board that elects itself-perpetuating board that elects it effectively elects its own members soeffectively elects its own members soeffectively elects its own members so there's you know once it becomes oncethere's you know once it becomes oncethere's you know once it becomes once the balance tips politically one way orthe balance tips politically one way orthe balance tips politically one way or another they can you know it can be keptanother they can you know it can be keptanother they can you know it can be kept that way forever there's no kind ofthat way forever there's no kind ofthat way forever there's no kind of rebalancing system you know if a USrebalancing system you know if a USrebalancing system you know if a US Corporation goes off the rails so toCorporation goes off the rails so toCorporation goes off the rails so to speak the shareholders can to getspeak the shareholders can to getspeak the shareholders can to get together and vote off the directorstogether and vote off the directorstogether and vote off the directors there's no ability to vote off thethere's no ability to vote off thethere's no ability to vote off the directors then there's the board ofdirectors then there's the board ofdirectors then there's the board of overseers which is I think 32 uhoverseers which is I think 32 uhoverseers which is I think 32 uh directors and there a few years ago ifdirectors and there a few years ago ifdirectors and there a few years ago if you could put together 600 signaturesyou could put together 600 signaturesyou could put together 600 signatures you could run for that board and put upyou could run for that board and put upyou could run for that board and put up a bunch of candidates and about five ora bunch of candidates and about five ora bunch of candidates and about five or six get elected each yearsix get elected each year
six get elected each year and uh a group did exactly that and itand uh a group did exactly that and itand uh a group did exactly that and it was an oil and gas kind of disinvestmentwas an oil and gas kind of disinvestmentwas an oil and gas kind of disinvestment uh group uh they got the signatures auh group uh they got the signatures auh group uh they got the signatures a couple of them got elected and uhcouple of them got elected and uhcouple of them got elected and uh Harvard then changed the rules and theyHarvard then changed the rules and theyHarvard then changed the rules and they said now we need 3,200said now we need 3,200said now we need 3,200 signatures and uh and by the way if ifsignatures and uh and by the way if ifsignatures and uh and by the way if if there are these dissident directors onthere are these dissident directors onthere are these dissident directors on the board we're only going to allowthe board we're only going to allowthe board we're only going to allow we're going to cap them at five so ifwe're going to cap them at five so ifwe're going to cap them at five so if three were elected in the oil and gasthree were elected in the oil and gasthree were elected in the oil and gas thing now there are only two seatsthing now there are only two seatsthing now there are only two seats available MH and then a group of formeravailable MH and then a group of formeravailable MH and then a group of former students kind of younger alums one ofstudents kind of younger alums one ofstudents kind of younger alums one of whom I knew approached me and said lookwhom I knew approached me and said lookwhom I knew approached me and said look Bill we should we should run for theBill we should we should run for theBill we should we should run for the board and they decided this pretty lateboard and they decided this pretty lateboard and they decided this pretty late uh only a few weeks before theuh only a few weeks before theuh only a few weeks before the signatures were due and we love yoursignatures were due and we love yoursignatures were due and we love your support you know I took a look at theirsupport you know I took a look at theirsupport you know I took a look at their platform I thought it looked great Iplatform I thought it looked great Iplatform I thought it looked great I said look happy to support and I postedsaid look happy to support and I posted
said look happy to support and I posted about them you know did a zoom with themabout them you know did a zoom with themabout them you know did a zoom with them and they got thousands of signatures youand they got thousands of signatures youand they got thousands of signatures you know collectively the four got whateverknow collectively the four got whateverknow collectively the four got whatever 12,000 signatures or something like this12,000 signatures or something like this12,000 signatures or something like this and they missed by about 10% uh theand they missed by about 10% uh theand they missed by about 10% uh the threshold and what did Harvard do in thethreshold and what did Harvard do in thethreshold and what did Harvard do in the middle the election they made it verymiddle the election they made it verymiddle the election they made it very very difficult to sign up you know for avery difficult to sign up you know for avery difficult to sign up you know for a vote and it just makes them lookvote and it just makes them lookvote and it just makes them look terrible and they've got now thousandsterrible and they've got now thousandsterrible and they've got now thousands of alums uh upset that and again thisof alums uh upset that and again thisof alums uh upset that and again this wasn't an election it was this was justwasn't an election it was this was justwasn't an election it was this was just to put the names on the Slate so theto put the names on the Slate so theto put the names on the Slate so the only candidates on the Slate are theonly candidates on the Slate are theonly candidates on the Slate are the ones selected by the you know theones selected by the you know theones selected by the you know the existing members and so it's it'sexisting members and so it's it'sexisting members and so it's it's uh businesses fail because of governanceuh businesses fail because of governanceuh businesses fail because of governance failures universities fail because offailures universities fail because offailures universities fail because of governance failures it's not really thegovernance failures it's not really thegovernance failures it's not really the president's fault because the job of thepresident's fault because the job of thepresident's fault because the job of the board is to fire hire and fire theboard is to fire hire and fire theboard is to fire hire and fire the president and help guide the institution
president and help guide the institutionpresident and help guide the institution academically otherwise so that'sacademically otherwise so that'sacademically otherwise so that's governance angovernance angovernance an ideology I was like how can this beideology I was like how can this beideology I was like how can this be October 7th the event that woke me upOctober 7th the event that woke me upOctober 7th the event that woke me up was 30 student organizations came outwas 30 student organizations came outwas 30 student organizations came out with a public letter on October 8th thatwith a public letter on October 8th thatwith a public letter on October 8th that literally the morning after this letterliterally the morning after this letterliterally the morning after this letter was created and said Israel is solelywas created and said Israel is solelywas created and said Israel is solely responsible for hamas's violent Actsresponsible for hamas's violent Actsresponsible for hamas's violent Acts again Israel had not even mounted aagain Israel had not even mounted aagain Israel had not even mounted a defense at this point and there weredefense at this point and there weredefense at this point and there were still terrorists running around in thestill terrorists running around in thestill terrorists running around in the southern part ofsouthern part ofsouthern part of Israel um and I'm like H HarvardIsrael um and I'm like H HarvardIsrael um and I'm like H Harvard students you know 34 Harvard studentstudents you know 34 Harvard studentstudents you know 34 Harvard student organizations signed this letter and I'morganizations signed this letter and I'morganizations signed this letter and I'm like what is going on you know WTF rightlike what is going on you know WTF rightlike what is going on you know WTF right and uh that's when I went up on campusand uh that's when I went up on campusand uh that's when I went up on campus and I started talking to the faculty andand I started talking to the faculty andand I started talking to the faculty and that's where I started hearing aboutthat's where I started hearing aboutthat's where I started hearing about actually bill it's it's this Deiactually bill it's it's this Deiactually bill it's it's this Dei ideology I'm likeideology I'm likeideology I'm like what like diversity Equity inclusion youwhat like diversity Equity inclusion you
what like diversity Equity inclusion you know you know obviously I'm familiarknow you know obviously I'm familiarknow you know obviously I'm familiar with these words and and you know I seewith these words and and you know I seewith these words and and you know I see this in the corporate context they saythis in the corporate context they saythis in the corporate context they say yeah and they started talking to meyeah and they started talking to meyeah and they started talking to me about this oppressorabout this oppressorabout this oppressor oppressed uh framework uh which isoppressed uh framework uh which isoppressed uh framework uh which is effectively taught at on campus andeffectively taught at on campus andeffectively taught at on campus and represents the backdrop for many of therepresents the backdrop for many of therepresents the backdrop for many of the courses that are offered and and in thecourses that are offered and and in thecourses that are offered and and in the various uh some of the studies and othervarious uh some of the studies and othervarious uh some of the studies and other degree offerings I'm like I had not evendegree offerings I'm like I had not evendegree offerings I'm like I had not even heard of this and you know I'm prettyheard of this and you know I'm prettyheard of this and you know I'm pretty aware person uh but I was completelyaware person uh but I was completelyaware person uh but I was completely unaware and and basically they're likeunaware and and basically they're likeunaware and and basically they're like look Israel is deemed anlook Israel is deemed anlook Israel is deemed an oppressor and the Palestinians areoppressor and the Palestinians areoppressor and the Palestinians are deemed the oppressed and you take thedeemed the oppressed and you take thedeemed the oppressed and you take the side of the the oppressed and any actsside of the the oppressed and any actsside of the the oppressed and any acts of the oppressed to dislodge theof the oppressed to dislodge theof the oppressed to dislodge the oppressor regardless of how vile oroppressor regardless of how vile oroppressor regardless of how vile or barbaric orbarbaric orbarbaric or okay I'm like okay this is a superokay I'm like okay this is a superokay I'm like okay this is a super dangerous ideology and so I I wrote adangerous ideology and so I I wrote adangerous ideology and so I I wrote a like questioning post post about this
like questioning post post about thislike questioning post post about this like here's what I'm hearing you know amlike here's what I'm hearing you know amlike here's what I'm hearing you know am I is this right then I had someone aI is this right then I had someone aI is this right then I had someone a friend of mine sent me a Christopherfriend of mine sent me a Christopherfriend of mine sent me a Christopher rufo book America's cultural revolutionrufo book America's cultural revolutionrufo book America's cultural revolution which is sort of a sociological study ofwhich is sort of a sociological study ofwhich is sort of a sociological study of the origins of the Dei movement andthe origins of the Dei movement andthe origins of the Dei movement and critical race Theory and uh I found itcritical race Theory and uh I found itcritical race Theory and uh I found it actually one of the more important booksactually one of the more important booksactually one of the more important books I've read and uh also found it quiteI've read and uh also found it quiteI've read and uh also found it quite concerning and and really the it's sortconcerning and and really the it's sortconcerning and and really the it's sort of a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uhof a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uhof a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uh kind of a Marxist uh socialist backdropkind of a Marxist uh socialist backdropkind of a Marxist uh socialist backdrop way to look at the world and so I thinkway to look at the world and so I thinkway to look at the world and so I think there a lot of issues with it but itthere a lot of issues with it but itthere a lot of issues with it but it unfortunately it's advancing likeunfortunately it's advancing likeunfortunately it's advancing like ultimatelyultimatelyultimately concluded uh racism uh as opposed toconcluded uh racism uh as opposed toconcluded uh racism uh as opposed to fighting it which is what I thought itfighting it which is what I thought itfighting it which is what I thought it was ultimately about so maybe you canwas ultimately about so maybe you canwas ultimately about so maybe you can speak to that book a little bit sospeak to that book a little bit sospeak to that book a little bit so there's a history that traces backthere's a history that traces backthere's a history that traces back acrossacrossacross decades and then that infiltrated
decades and then that infiltrateddecades and then that infiltrated college campusescollege campusescollege campuses so basically what rufo argues is thatso basically what rufo argues is thatso basically what rufo argues is that the Black Power movement of the 60sthe Black Power movement of the 60sthe Black Power movement of the 60s really failed it was a very violentreally failed it was a very violentreally failed it was a very violent movement and many of the protagonistsmovement and many of the protagonistsmovement and many of the protagonists ended up in jail and uh out of thatended up in jail and uh out of thatended up in jail and uh out of that movement a number of uh kind of thoughtmovement a number of uh kind of thoughtmovement a number of uh kind of thought leaders this guy named maruse uh andleaders this guy named maruse uh andleaders this guy named maruse uh and others built this framework kind of anothers built this framework kind of anothers built this framework kind of an approach said look if we're going to beapproach said look if we're going to beapproach said look if we're going to be successful can't be a violent movementsuccessful can't be a violent movementsuccessful can't be a violent movement number one number two need to infiltratenumber one number two need to infiltratenumber one number two need to infiltrate if you will the universities and we needif you will the universities and we needif you will the universities and we need to uh become part of the faculty and weto uh become part of the faculty and weto uh become part of the faculty and we need to teach the students and then onceneed to teach the students and then onceneed to teach the students and then once we take over the universities with thiswe take over the universities with thiswe take over the universities with this ideology then we can go into governmentideology then we can go into governmentideology then we can go into government and then we can go into corporations andand then we can go into corporations andand then we can go into corporations and we can change the world so I thoughtwe can change the world so I thoughtwe can change the world so I thought important book and the more I dug in theimportant book and the more I dug in theimportant book and the more I dug in the more I felt there was credibility tomore I felt there was credibility tomore I felt there was credibility to this not just the kind of sociological
this not just the kind of sociologicalthis not just the kind of sociological uh backdrop but to what it meant onuh backdrop but to what it meant onuh backdrop but to what it meant on campus and faculty Harvard faculty werecampus and faculty Harvard faculty werecampus and faculty Harvard faculty were telling me that you know there's reallytelling me that you know there's reallytelling me that you know there's really is no such thing as free speech onis no such thing as free speech onis no such thing as free speech on campus and that you know there was acampus and that you know there was acampus and that you know there was a survey done I don't know a year or sosurvey done I don't know a year or sosurvey done I don't know a year or so ago the Harvard faculty and only 2% ofago the Harvard faculty and only 2% ofago the Harvard faculty and only 2% of the faculty admitted even in anthe faculty admitted even in anthe faculty admitted even in an anonymous survey admitted to beinganonymous survey admitted to beinganonymous survey admitted to being having a conservative point of view sohaving a conservative point of view sohaving a conservative point of view so we have a campus that's 98%we have a campus that's 98%we have a campus that's 98% non-conservative liberalnon-conservative liberalnon-conservative liberal Progressive uh that's adopted this DeiProgressive uh that's adopted this DeiProgressive uh that's adopted this Dei construct um and this and that I learnedconstruct um and this and that I learnedconstruct um and this and that I learned from a member of the search committeefrom a member of the search committeefrom a member of the search committee for the Harvard president uh that theyfor the Harvard president uh that theyfor the Harvard president uh that they were restricted in looking at candidateswere restricted in looking at candidateswere restricted in looking at candidates only those who met the Dei officesonly those who met the Dei officesonly those who met the Dei offices criteria and I shared this in one of mycriteria and I shared this in one of mycriteria and I shared this in one of my postings and I was accused of being apostings and I was accused of being apostings and I was accused of being a racistracistracist um but uh and that's someone whoum but uh and that's someone whoum but uh and that's someone who believes in that diversity is a verybelieves in that diversity is a very
believes in that diversity is a very good thing for organizations and thatgood thing for organizations and thatgood thing for organizations and that Equity fairness is really important andEquity fairness is really important andEquity fairness is really important and having an inclusive culture is CRhaving an inclusive culture is CRhaving an inclusive culture is CR critical you know for functioning ofcritical you know for functioning ofcritical you know for functioning of organization you know so here I wasorganization you know so here I wasorganization you know so here I was someone who was like okay di sounds goodsomeone who was like okay di sounds goodsomeone who was like okay di sounds good to me you know at least in the small Dto me you know at least in the small Dto me you know at least in the small D Small E uh I uh version of events butSmall E uh I uh version of events butSmall E uh I uh version of events but this di ideology is really problematicthis di ideology is really problematicthis di ideology is really problematic so what's the way to fix this in theso what's the way to fix this in theso what's the way to fix this in the next fewnext fewnext few years uh the in infiltration of Dei withyears uh the in infiltration of Dei withyears uh the in infiltration of Dei with the uppercase version of universitiesthe uppercase version of universitiesthe uppercase version of universities and the things that have troubled youand the things that have troubled youand the things that have troubled you the things you've saw at Harvard andthe things you've saw at Harvard andthe things you've saw at Harvard and elsewhere in the same way this was anelsewhere in the same way this was anelsewhere in the same way this was an eye openening event for me it has beeneye openening event for me it has beeneye openening event for me it has been for a very broad range of other peoplefor a very broad range of other peoplefor a very broad range of other people I've never gotten you know I mentionedI've never gotten you know I mentionedI've never gotten you know I mentioned General growth I got a lot of niceGeneral growth I got a lot of niceGeneral growth I got a lot of nice letters from people for making money onletters from people for making money onletters from people for making money on a stock that went up a 100a stock that went up a 100a stock that went up a 100 times uh but I literally get uh hundreds
times uh but I literally get uh hundredstimes uh but I literally get uh hundreds of emails letters texts handwrittenof emails letters texts handwrittenof emails letters texts handwritten letters type letters from people theletters type letters from people theletters type letters from people the ages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is soages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is soages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is so important thanks for speaking out onimportant thanks for speaking out onimportant thanks for speaking out on this you were saying what you know sothis you were saying what you know sothis you were saying what you know so many of us believe but have been afraidmany of us believe but have been afraidmany of us believe but have been afraid to say you know it's a I described it asto say you know it's a I described it asto say you know it's a I described it as almost a mccth esque kind of movementalmost a mccth esque kind of movementalmost a mccth esque kind of movement and that if you challenge the Deiand that if you challenge the Deiand that if you challenge the Dei construct people accuse you of beingconstruct people accuse you of beingconstruct people accuse you of being racist it's happened to me already uhracist it's happened to me already uhracist it's happened to me already uh you know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'myou know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'myou know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'm much less vulnerable than a universitymuch less vulnerable than a universitymuch less vulnerable than a university Professor who can get shouted off campusProfessor who can get shouted off campusProfessor who can get shouted off campus cancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult tocancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult tocancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult to cancel uh but that doesn't mean peoplecancel uh but that doesn't mean peoplecancel uh but that doesn't mean people are going to try and uh you know hadare going to try and uh you know hadare going to try and uh you know had I've been the victim of a couple of uhI've been the victim of a couple of uhI've been the victim of a couple of uh interesting articles in the last fewinteresting articles in the last fewinteresting articles in the last few days or at least one in particular indays or at least one in particular indays or at least one in particular in the Washington post written by what Ithe Washington post written by what I
the Washington post written by what I thought was a well-meaning reporter butthought was a well-meaning reporter butthought was a well-meaning reporter but it's just clear that you know I've takenit's just clear that you know I've takenit's just clear that you know I've taken on some big parts of at least theon some big parts of at least theon some big parts of at least the progressive establishment Dei I'm also aprogressive establishment Dei I'm also aprogressive establishment Dei I'm also a you know believer that Biden should haveyou know believer that Biden should haveyou know believer that Biden should have stepped aside a long time ago and it'sstepped aside a long time ago and it'sstepped aside a long time ago and it's only getting worse um and so I'm I'monly getting worse um and so I'm I'monly getting worse um and so I'm I'm attacking the presidentattacking the presidentattacking the president Dei Elite IDei Elite IDei Elite I ities um and uh you make some enemiesities um and uh you make some enemiesities um and uh you make some enemies doing that well I should say I you knowdoing that well I should say I you knowdoing that well I should say I you know I'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and II'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and II'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and I believe in the power of greatbelieve in the power of greatbelieve in the power of great universities to uh explore ideas touniversities to uh explore ideas touniversities to uh explore ideas to inspire young people to think to be toinspire young people to think to be toinspire young people to think to be to inspire young people to lead let me askinspire young people to lead let me askinspire young people to lead let me ask okay how can you explore how to thinkokay how can you explore how to thinkokay how can you explore how to think when you're only shared a certain pointwhen you're only shared a certain pointwhen you're only shared a certain point of view right right how can you learnof view right right how can you learnof view right right how can you learn about leadership when when the theabout leadership when when the theabout leadership when when the the governance and Leadership of thegovernance and Leadership of thegovernance and Leadership of the institution is is broken and exposure toinstitution is is broken and exposure toinstitution is is broken and exposure to ideas if you're limited in the ideas
ideas if you're limited in the ideasideas if you're limited in the ideas that you're exposed to so I thinkthat you're exposed to so I thinkthat you're exposed to so I think Universities at risk I mean theUniversities at risk I mean theUniversities at risk I mean the concerning thing right is if 34 studentconcerning thing right is if 34 studentconcerning thing right is if 34 student organizations that each have I don'torganizations that each have I don'torganizations that each have I don't know 30 members or maybe more right it'sknow 30 members or maybe more right it'sknow 30 members or maybe more right it's a thousand okay that's a meaningfula thousand okay that's a meaningfula thousand okay that's a meaningful percentage of the of the campus perhapspercentage of the of the campus perhapspercentage of the of the campus perhaps that ultimately respond now a 10 or sothat ultimately respond now a 10 or sothat ultimately respond now a 10 or so of the 30 withdrew the statement onceof the 30 withdrew the statement onceof the 30 withdrew the statement once uh many of the members realized whatuh many of the members realized whatuh many of the members realized what they had written so I don't think itthey had written so I don't think itthey had written so I don't think it seems like the statement was signed byseems like the statement was signed byseems like the statement was signed by the leadership and not necessarilythe leadership and not necessarilythe leadership and not necessarily supported by all the various studentssupported by all the various studentssupported by all the various students that were uh were members but if thethat were uh were members but if thethat were uh were members but if the university teaches people theseuniversity teaches people theseuniversity teaches people these precepts this is the next generation ofprecepts this is the next generation ofprecepts this is the next generation of lead you know normally if you thinklead you know normally if you thinklead you know normally if you think about I wrote my college thesis onabout I wrote my college thesis onabout I wrote my college thesis on University of missions the reason whyUniversity of missions the reason whyUniversity of missions the reason why controlling you know the gates of thecontrolling you know the gates of thecontrolling you know the gates of the Harvard uh institution the missions is
Harvard uh institution the missions isHarvard uh institution the missions is important isn't that many of theseimportant isn't that many of theseimportant isn't that many of these people who graduate end up with you knowpeople who graduate end up with you knowpeople who graduate end up with you know the top jobs in government and and uhthe top jobs in government and and uhthe top jobs in government and and uh ultimately become judges um they're uhultimately become judges um they're uhultimately become judges um they're uh you know permeate through society and soyou know permeate through society and soyou know permeate through society and so it really matters what they learn and ifit really matters what they learn and ifit really matters what they learn and if it if they're limited to one side of theit if they're limited to one side of theit if they're limited to one side of the political aisle uh and they're not openpolitical aisle uh and they're not openpolitical aisle uh and they're not open to a broad array of of of views uh andto a broad array of of of views uh andto a broad array of of of views uh and this represent some of the most elitethis represent some of the most elitethis represent some of the most elite institutions in our country I think it'sinstitutions in our country I think it'sinstitutions in our country I think it's very problematic for the country longvery problematic for the country longvery problematic for the country long termtermterm yeah I 100% agree and I also felt likeyeah I 100% agree and I also felt likeyeah I 100% agree and I also felt like thethe leadership wasn'tleadership wasn'tleadership wasn't even part of the problem as much as theyeven part of the problem as much as theyeven part of the problem as much as they were almost out of touch likewere almost out of touch likewere almost out of touch like unaware that this is an important momentunaware that this is an important momentunaware that this is an important moment it's an important crisis it's anit's an important crisis it's anit's an important crisis it's an important opportunity to step up as aimportant opportunity to step up as aimportant opportunity to step up as a leader and Define the future of anleader and Define the future of anleader and Define the future of an institution so I don't even know whereinstitution so I don't even know whereinstitution so I don't even know where the source of the problem is it could be
the source of the problem is it could bethe source of the problem is it could be literally government structliterally government structliterally government struct as we've been two things I think it'sas we've been two things I think it'sas we've been two things I think it's governance structure I also thinkgovernance structure I also thinkgovernance structure I also think universities are selecting they're notuniversities are selecting they're notuniversities are selecting they're not selecting leaders yeah U you know it'sselecting leaders yeah U you know it'sselecting leaders yeah U you know it's not clear to me thatnot clear to me thatnot clear to me that uh University should necessarily be runuh University should necessarily be runuh University should necessarily be run by academics right you know the the theby academics right you know the the theby academics right you know the the the dean of adean of adean of a university uh you know the person whouniversity uh you know the person whouniversity uh you know the person who helpshelpshelps um sort of the business of theum sort of the business of theum sort of the business of the University right and then there's theUniversity right and then there's theUniversity right and then there's the academics of the university and having aacademics of the university and having aacademics of the university and having a I would argue having a business leaderI would argue having a business leaderI would argue having a business leader run theserun theserun these institutions uh and then having a boardinstitutions uh and then having a boardinstitutions uh and then having a board that's invol a board that has itselfthat's invol a board that has itselfthat's invol a board that has itself diverse viewpoints and by the waydiverse viewpoints and by the waydiverse viewpoints and by the way permanently structured to have diversepermanently structured to have diversepermanently structured to have diverse viewpoints uh is a much better way toviewpoints uh is a much better way toviewpoints uh is a much better way to run a university than picking anrun a university than picking anrun a university than picking an academic that the faculty supportsacademic that the faculty supportsacademic that the faculty supports because you know one of the things Ibecause you know one of the things Ibecause you know one of the things I learned about how faculty get hired at
learned about how faculty get hired atlearned about how faculty get hired at universities ultimately it's signed offuniversities ultimately it's signed offuniversities ultimately it's signed off by the boardby the boardby the board but you know the new faculty are chosenbut you know the new faculty are chosenbut you know the new faculty are chosen by each of the various departments andby each of the various departments andby each of the various departments and once the Departments tip uh there's sortonce the Departments tip uh there's sortonce the Departments tip uh there's sort of a Tipping Point politically where ifof a Tipping Point politically where ifof a Tipping Point politically where if once they tip in One Direction Theonce they tip in One Direction Theonce they tip in One Direction The Faculty uh recruit more people likeFaculty uh recruit more people likeFaculty uh recruit more people like themselves and so the Departments comethemselves and so the Departments comethemselves and so the Departments come more and more Progressive if you willmore and more Progressive if you willmore and more Progressive if you will with the passage of time and they onlywith the passage of time and they onlywith the passage of time and they only Advance candidates that that match theirAdvance candidates that that match theirAdvance candidates that that match their U they meet their political objectivesU they meet their political objectivesU they meet their political objectives it's it's not a great way to to build anit's it's not a great way to to build anit's it's not a great way to to build an instit institution which allows forinstit institution which allows forinstit institution which allows for small D diversity allows for yeahsmall D diversity allows for yeahsmall D diversity allows for yeah diversity and diversity by the way isdiversity and diversity by the way isdiversity and diversity by the way is not just race and gender and uh that'snot just race and gender and uh that'snot just race and gender and uh that's also something I feel very stronglyalso something I feel very stronglyalso something I feel very strongly about well luckily engineering roboticsabout well luckily engineering roboticsabout well luckily engineering robotics is touched Last by this it is touchedis touched Last by this it is touchedis touched Last by this it is touched but you know uh I've when I'm at the
but you know uh I've when I'm at thebut you know uh I've when I'm at the Computing building stata and the new oneComputing building stata and the new oneComputing building stata and the new one politics doesn't infiltrate or I haven'tpolitics doesn't infiltrate or I haven'tpolitics doesn't infiltrate or I haven't seen it infiltrate quite as deep Placeseen it infiltrate quite as deep Placeseen it infiltrate quite as deep Place elsewhere but it's in the biologyelsewhere but it's in the biologyelsewhere but it's in the biology department at Harvard because biology isdepartment at Harvard because biology isdepartment at Harvard because biology is controversial now yes yes yes becausecontroversial now yes yes yes becausecontroversial now yes yes yes because biology and gender you know there therebiology and gender you know there therebiology and gender you know there there there are faculty there's a woman atthere are faculty there's a woman atthere are faculty there's a woman at Harvard who was literally canceled fromHarvard who was literally canceled fromHarvard who was literally canceled from The Faculty as a member I think she wasThe Faculty as a member I think she wasThe Faculty as a member I think she was the med school uh and she was you knowthe med school uh and she was you knowthe med school uh and she was you know she made the argument that there areshe made the argument that there areshe made the argument that there are basically you know two gendersbasically you know two gendersbasically you know two genders determined by biology and she wasn'tdetermined by biology and she wasn'tdetermined by biology and she wasn't allowed toallowed toallowed to stay oh that's another topic for anotherstay oh that's another topic for anotherstay oh that's another topic for another time topic you should do a show on thattime topic you should do a show on thattime topic you should do a show on that one that would be an interesting one soone that would be an interesting one soone that would be an interesting one so as you said technically Claud gay theas you said technically Claud gay theas you said technically Claud gay the president of Harvard resigned overpresident of Harvard resigned overpresident of Harvard resigned over plagiarism not over the thing that youplagiarism not over the thing that youplagiarism not over the thing that you were initially troubled by it's hard to
were initially troubled by it's hard towere initially troubled by it's hard to really know right it's not like areally know right it's not like areally know right it's not like a provable fact I would say at a certainprovable fact I would say at a certainprovable fact I would say at a certain point in time she lost the confidence ofpoint in time she lost the confidence ofpoint in time she lost the confidence of the faculty and that was ultimately thethe faculty and that was ultimately thethe faculty and that was ultimately the Catalyst and whether that was how muchCatalyst and whether that was how muchCatalyst and whether that was how much of that was the plagiarism issue and howof that was the plagiarism issue and howof that was the plagiarism issue and how much of that was some of the things thatmuch of that was some of the things thatmuch of that was some of the things that preceded it or was it all these issuespreceded it or was it all these issuespreceded it or was it all these issues in their entirety we don't reallyin their entirety we don't reallyin their entirety we don't really there's no way to do a calculus can youthere's no way to do a calculus can youthere's no way to do a calculus can you explain the nature of this plagiarismexplain the nature of this plagiarismexplain the nature of this plagiarism from what you remember uh so Aon sarumfrom what you remember uh so Aon sarumfrom what you remember uh so Aon sarum and Christopher rufo one from the Freeand Christopher rufo one from the Freeand Christopher rufo one from the Free Beacon and Chris you know surfaced someBeacon and Chris you know surfaced someBeacon and Chris you know surfaced some allegations on or identified some plagerallegations on or identified some plagerallegations on or identified some plager issues that I would say the initialissues that I would say the initialissues that I would say the initial examples were you know uh use of theexamples were you know uh use of theexamples were you know uh use of the same words with proper attribution somesame words with proper attribution somesame words with proper attribution some missing quot you knowmissing quot you knowmissing quot you know footnotes and then overfootnotes and then overfootnotes and then over time uh with I guess more digging theytime uh with I guess more digging theytime uh with I guess more digging they released I think ultimately something
released I think ultimately somethingreleased I think ultimately something like 76 examples of uh what they calllike 76 examples of uh what they calllike 76 examples of uh what they call plagiarism in I think eight of 11 of herplagiarism in I think eight of 11 of herplagiarism in I think eight of 11 of her articles and one of the other thingsarticles and one of the other thingsarticles and one of the other things that came forth here is as president ofthat came forth here is as president ofthat came forth here is as president of the University she had sort of thethe University she had sort of thethe University she had sort of the thinnest transcript academically of anythinnest transcript academically of anythinnest transcript academically of any previous president you know very smallprevious president you know very smallprevious president you know very small relatively small body of work and thenrelatively small body of work and thenrelatively small body of work and then when you couple that with the amount ofwhen you couple that with the amount ofwhen you couple that with the amount of plagiarism that was pervasiveplagiarism that was pervasiveplagiarism that was pervasive and then I guess the some of the otherand then I guess the some of the otherand then I guess the some of the other examples that surface were not missingexamples that surface were not missingexamples that surface were not missing quotation marks where the authors of thequotation marks where the authors of thequotation marks where the authors of the work felt that their ideas had beenwork felt that their ideas had beenwork felt that their ideas had been stolen and really plagiarism is academicstolen and really plagiarism is academicstolen and really plagiarism is academic fraud there's there indic one indic offraud there's there indic one indic offraud there's there indic one indic of plagiarism is a missing footnote thatplagiarism is a missing footnote thatplagiarism is a missing footnote that could also be a clerical error and socould also be a clerical error and socould also be a clerical error and so when a you know Professor is accused ofwhen a you know Professor is accused ofwhen a you know Professor is accused of plagiarism University does sort of aplagiarism University does sort of aplagiarism University does sort of a deep dive they have these administrativedeep dive they have these administrative
deep dive they have these administrative boards and it can take 6 months N9boards and it can take 6 months N9boards and it can take 6 months N9 months a year to evaluate you knowmonths a year to evaluate you knowmonths a year to evaluate you know intent matters was this intentionalintent matters was this intentionalintent matters was this intentional theft of another person's idea that'stheft of another person's idea that'stheft of another person's idea that's academic fraud or was this sloppy youacademic fraud or was this sloppy youacademic fraud or was this sloppy you know you missed or just Humanity rightknow you missed or just Humanity rightknow you missed or just Humanity right you you miss a footnote here or thereyou you miss a footnote here or thereyou you miss a footnote here or there and uh I think once it got to a placeand uh I think once it got to a placeand uh I think once it got to a place where people felt it was theft ofwhere people felt it was theft ofwhere people felt it was theft of someone else's intellectual propertysomeone else's intellectual propertysomeone else's intellectual property that's when it became intolerable forthat's when it became intolerable forthat's when it became intolerable for her to stay as president of Harvard soher to stay as president of Harvard soher to stay as president of Harvard so is there a spectrum for you betweenis there a spectrum for you betweenis there a spectrum for you between a different kinds of plagiarism maybe Ua different kinds of plagiarism maybe Ua different kinds of plagiarism maybe U plagiarizing words and plagiarizingplagiarizing words and plagiarizingplagiarizing words and plagiarizing ideas and plagiarizing novelideas and plagiarizing novelideas and plagiarizing novel ideas of course the common understandingideas of course the common understandingideas of course the common understanding of plagiarism if you look in theof plagiarism if you look in theof plagiarism if you look in the dictionary it's aboutdictionary it's aboutdictionary it's about theft theft requires atheft theft requires atheft theft requires a intent did the person intentionally takeintent did the person intentionally takeintent did the person intentionally take someone else's ideas or words now ifsomeone else's ideas or words now ifsomeone else's ideas or words now if you're if you're writing a novel rightyou're if you're writing a novel right
you're if you're writing a novel right words matter more right if you're takingwords matter more right if you're takingwords matter more right if you're taking Shakespeare and presenting it as yourShakespeare and presenting it as yourShakespeare and presenting it as your own words uh if you're you know writingown words uh if you're you know writingown words uh if you're you know writing about ideas you know ideas matter butabout ideas you know ideas matter butabout ideas you know ideas matter but you're not supposed to take someoneyou're not supposed to take someoneyou're not supposed to take someone else's words without properlyelse's words without properlyelse's words without properly acknowledging them whether it'sacknowledging them whether it'sacknowledging them whether it's quotation marks or otherwise but in thequotation marks or otherwise but in thequotation marks or otherwise but in the context of a academic's life's workcontext of a academic's life's workcontext of a academic's life's work beforebeforebefore AI everyone's going to have missingAI everyone's going to have missingAI everyone's going to have missing quotation marks and footnotes I rememberquotation marks and footnotes I rememberquotation marks and footnotes I remember writing my own thesis you know I wouldwriting my own thesis you know I wouldwriting my own thesis you know I would write I would take there books youwrite I would take there books youwrite I would take there books you couldn't take out of Widener Library socouldn't take out of Widener Library socouldn't take out of Widener Library so I'd have index cards and I write stuffI'd have index cards and I write stuffI'd have index cards and I write stuff on index cards and I put a littleon index cards and I put a littleon index cards and I put a little citation to make sure I remember tocitation to make sure I remember tocitation to make sure I remember to cited properly and you know scramblingcited properly and you know scramblingcited properly and you know scrambling to do your thesis get it in on timeto do your thesis get it in on timeto do your thesis get it in on time what's the chances you forget at whatwhat's the chances you forget at whatwhat's the chances you forget at what point what are your words versus thepoint what are your words versus thepoint what are your words versus the author's words and you forget to putauthor's words and you forget to put
author's words and you forget to put quotation marks just the humanity youquotation marks just the humanity youquotation marks just the humanity you know the human uh fallibility of it soknow the human uh fallibility of it soknow the human uh fallibility of it so you know you don't get it's not academicyou know you don't get it's not academicyou know you don't get it's not academic fraud to have human fail ability butfraud to have human fail ability butfraud to have human fail ability but it's academic fraud if you take someoneit's academic fraud if you take someoneit's academic fraud if you take someone else's ideas that are an integral partelse's ideas that are an integral partelse's ideas that are an integral part of your work is there a part of you thatof your work is there a part of you thatof your work is there a part of you that regrets that at least from theregrets that at least from theregrets that at least from the perception of it the the president ofperception of it the the president ofperception of it the the president of Harvard stepped down over plagiarismHarvard stepped down over plagiarismHarvard stepped down over plagiarism versusversusversus over refusing to say that the calls forover refusing to say that the calls forover refusing to say that the calls for genocide are wrong again I think itgenocide are wrong again I think itgenocide are wrong again I think it would have sent a betterwould have sent a betterwould have sent a better message if a fail if a leader fails as amessage if a fail if a leader fails as amessage if a fail if a leader fails as a leaderleaderleader and that's the reason for theirand that's the reason for theirand that's the reason for their resignation or dismissal then she getsresignation or dismissal then she getsresignation or dismissal then she gets if you will caught on a technicalif you will caught on a technicalif you will caught on a technical violation that had nothing to do withviolation that had nothing to do withviolation that had nothing to do with failed leadership because I don't knowfailed leadership because I don't knowfailed leadership because I don't know what lesson that that you know whatwhat lesson that that you know whatwhat lesson that that you know what lesson that teaches the board aboutlesson that teaches the board aboutlesson that teaches the board about selecting the next candidate I mean the
selecting the next candidate I mean theselecting the next candidate I mean the future of Harvard a lot of it's going tofuture of Harvard a lot of it's going tofuture of Harvard a lot of it's going to depend on who they pick as the nextdepend on who they pick as the nextdepend on who they pick as the next leader um here's an interestingleader um here's an interestingleader um here's an interesting anecdote uh that I think is not surfacedanecdote uh that I think is not surfacedanecdote uh that I think is not surfaced publicly so um a guy named Larry beo waspublicly so um a guy named Larry beo waspublicly so um a guy named Larry beo was the previous president of Harvard Larrythe previous president of Harvard Larrythe previous president of Harvard Larry beo was on the searchbeo was on the searchbeo was on the search committee uh and they were looking forcommittee uh and they were looking forcommittee uh and they were looking for newnewnew president and what was strange was theypresident and what was strange was theypresident and what was strange was they picked an old white guy to be presidentpicked an old white guy to be presidentpicked an old white guy to be president of Harvard when there was you know aof Harvard when there was you know aof Harvard when there was you know a call for a more diverse president andcall for a more diverse president andcall for a more diverse president and what I learned was Harvard actually ranwhat I learned was Harvard actually ranwhat I learned was Harvard actually ran aa process had a diverse new president ofprocess had a diverse new president ofprocess had a diverse new president of Harvard and in the due diligence on thatHarvard and in the due diligence on thatHarvard and in the due diligence on that candidate shortly before thecandidate shortly before thecandidate shortly before the announcement of the new president theyannouncement of the new president theyannouncement of the new president they found out that the president thatfound out that the president thatfound out that the president that presidential candidate had a plagiarismpresidential candidate had a plagiarismpresidential candidate had a plagiarism problem and the search had gone on longproblem and the search had gone on longproblem and the search had gone on long enough they couldn't restart a search toenough they couldn't restart a search toenough they couldn't restart a search to find another candidate so they picked
find another candidate so they pickedfind another candidate so they picked Larry backo off the board off the searchLarry backo off the board off the searchLarry backo off the board off the search committee to be the next president ofcommittee to be the next president ofcommittee to be the next president of Harvard as kind of an inimHarvard as kind of an inimHarvard as kind of an inim solution and then there was that muchsolution and then there was that muchsolution and then there was that much more pressure to have a more diversemore pressure to have a more diversemore pressure to have a more diverse candidate this time around because itcandidate this time around because itcandidate this time around because it was a big disappointment to the Deiwas a big disappointment to the Deiwas a big disappointment to the Dei office if you will and I would say tooffice if you will and I would say tooffice if you will and I would say to the community at large at the Harvard ofthe community at large at the Harvard ofthe community at large at the Harvard of all places couldn't have a you know aall places couldn't have a you know aall places couldn't have a you know a racially diverse present would send anracially diverse present would send anracially diverse present would send an importantimportantimportant message um so the strange thing is thatmessage um so the strange thing is thatmessage um so the strange thing is that they didn't do due diligence onthey didn't do due diligence onthey didn't do due diligence on President gay and that was a relativelyPresident gay and that was a relativelyPresident gay and that was a relatively quick process um so the whole thing Iquick process um so the whole thing Iquick process um so the whole thing I think is worthy of further you knowthink is worthy of further you knowthink is worthy of further you know exploration so this goes deeper thanexploration so this goes deeper thanexploration so this goes deeper than just the president yes for sure when ajust the president yes for sure when ajust the president yes for sure when a company fails most people blame the CEOcompany fails most people blame the CEOcompany fails most people blame the CEO I generally blame theI generally blame theI generally blame the board right because the board's job isboard right because the board's job isboard right because the board's job is to make sure the right person is running
to make sure the right person is runningto make sure the right person is running the company and if they're failing helpthe company and if they're failing helpthe company and if they're failing help the person if they can't help the personthe person if they can't help the personthe person if they can't help the person make a change that's not what's happenedmake a change that's not what's happenedmake a change that's not what's happened here the board's hand was sort of forcedhere the board's hand was sort of forcedhere the board's hand was sort of forced from the outside whereas they shouldfrom the outside whereas they shouldfrom the outside whereas they should have made their own decision from thehave made their own decision from thehave made their own decision from the inside you still love Harvard sure it'sinside you still love Harvard sure it'sinside you still love Harvard sure it's a 400 odd year uh institution it uha 400 odd year uh institution it uha 400 odd year uh institution it uh enormously helpful to me in my life I'menormously helpful to me in my life I'menormously helpful to me in my life I'm sure uh my sister also went to Harvardsure uh my sister also went to Harvardsure uh my sister also went to Harvard um and you know the experiencesum and you know the experiencesum and you know the experiences learnings friendshipslearnings friendshipslearnings friendships relationships uh you know again I'm veryrelationships uh you know again I'm veryrelationships uh you know again I'm very happy with my life uh Harvard was anhappy with my life uh Harvard was anhappy with my life uh Harvard was an important part of my life I went thereimportant part of my life I went thereimportant part of my life I went there for both undergrad and business school Ifor both undergrad and business school Ifor both undergrad and business school I learned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lotlearned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lotlearned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lot from number of my closest friends who Ifrom number of my closest friends who Ifrom number of my closest friends who I I still really keep in touch with how II still really keep in touch with how II still really keep in touch with how I made then so yeah it's a great place butmade then so yeah it's a great place butmade then so yeah it's a great place but it needs a a reboot yeah I I still haveit needs a a reboot yeah I I still have
it needs a a reboot yeah I I still have hope I think uh universities are reallyhope I think uh universities are reallyhope I think uh universities are really important institutions you know when Iimportant institutions you know when Iimportant institutions you know when I went to Harvard there were 1600 peoplewent to Harvard there were 1600 peoplewent to Harvard there were 1600 people in my class I think today's class isin my class I think today's class isin my class I think today's class is about the sameabout the sameabout the same size and uh their online educationsize and uh their online educationsize and uh their online education really has not sort of taken off rightreally has not sort of taken off rightreally has not sort of taken off right so I heard Peter teal speak at one pointso I heard Peter teal speak at one pointso I heard Peter teal speak at one point in time and he's like what greatin time and he's like what greatin time and he's like what great institution do you know that's trulyinstitution do you know that's trulyinstitution do you know that's truly great that hasn't grown in 100 yearsgreat that hasn't grown in 100 yearsgreat that hasn't grown in 100 years right and uh you know the incentives inright and uh you know the incentives inright and uh you know the incentives in some sense of the alums are for it it'ssome sense of the alums are for it it'ssome sense of the alums are for it it's a bit like a club if you're proud of thea bit like a club if you're proud of thea bit like a club if you're proud of the elitism of the club you don't want anyelitism of the club you don't want anyelitism of the club you don't want any that many new members but the fact thatthat many new members but the fact thatthat many new members but the fact that the population has grown of the countrythe population has grown of the countrythe population has grown of the country so you know significantly sinceso you know significantly sinceso you know significantly since certainly I was a student incertainly I was a student incertainly I was a student in 1984 uh and the fact that Harvard1984 uh and the fact that Harvard1984 uh and the fact that Harvard recruits people from all over the worldrecruits people from all over the worldrecruits people from all over the world it's really serving a smaller andit's really serving a smaller andit's really serving a smaller and smaller percentage of the population
smaller percentage of the populationsmaller percentage of the population today and you know some of were mosttoday and you know some of were mosttoday and you know some of were most talented andtalented andtalented and successful uh Entre anyway you know it'ssuccessful uh Entre anyway you know it'ssuccessful uh Entre anyway you know it's a it's a token of success that theya it's a token of success that theya it's a token of success that they didn't make it through theirdidn't make it through theirdidn't make it through their undergraduate years you know they leftundergraduate years you know they leftundergraduate years you know they left as a freshman or they didn't attend atas a freshman or they didn't attend atas a freshman or they didn't attend at all for entrepreneurs yes but it's stillall for entrepreneurs yes but it's stillall for entrepreneurs yes but it's still a place very important for research verya place very important for research verya place very important for research very important for advancingimportant for advancingimportant for advancing ideas uh and yes and and shapingideas uh and yes and and shapingideas uh and yes and and shaping dialogue and the next generation ofdialogue and the next generation ofdialogue and the next generation of Supreme Court Justices yes and you knowSupreme Court Justices yes and you knowSupreme Court Justices yes and you know the members of government politicians sothe members of government politicians sothe members of government politicians so yes it's critically important but ityes it's critically important but ityes it's critically important but it it'sit'sit's not not doing the job it should benot not doing the job it should benot not doing the job it should be doing Nar oxman somebody you mentioneddoing Nar oxman somebody you mentioneddoing Nar oxman somebody you mentioned several times throughout this podcastseveral times throughout this podcastseveral times throughout this podcast somebody I had a wonderful conversationsomebody I had a wonderful conversationsomebody I had a wonderful conversation with a friendship with I've known lookedwith a friendship with I've known lookedwith a friendship with I've known looked up to her admired her has been a fanup to her admired her has been a fanup to her admired her has been a fan I've been a fan of hers for a long timeI've been a fan of hers for a long timeI've been a fan of hers for a long time of her work um and of her as a human
of her work um and of her as a humanof her work um and of her as a human being uh looks like you're a fan of hersbeing uh looks like you're a fan of hersbeing uh looks like you're a fan of hers as well yesas well yesas well yes uh what do you love about AR what do youuh what do you love about AR what do youuh what do you love about AR what do you admire about her as a scientist artistadmire about her as a scientist artistadmire about her as a scientist artist human being Ihuman being Ihuman being I think uh she's the most beautiful personthink uh she's the most beautiful personthink uh she's the most beautiful person I've ever met and I mean that from likeI've ever met and I mean that from likeI've ever met and I mean that from like the center of herthe center of herthe center of her soul uh she's the most caring warmsoul uh she's the most caring warmsoul uh she's the most caring warm considerate you knowconsiderate you knowconsiderate you know thoughtful uh person I've ever met andthoughtful uh person I've ever met andthoughtful uh person I've ever met and uh and she couples those remarkableuh and she couples those remarkableuh and she couples those remarkable qualities with Brilliance incrediblequalities with Brilliance incrediblequalities with Brilliance incredible creativity Beauty Elegancecreativity Beauty Elegancecreativity Beauty Elegance Grace um yeah I'm talking about my wifeGrace um yeah I'm talking about my wifeGrace um yeah I'm talking about my wife um but I'm talking incrediblyum but I'm talking incrediblyum but I'm talking incredibly dispassionately um but I I mean what Idispassionately um but I I mean what Idispassionately um but I I mean what I say uh she's the most remarkable personsay uh she's the most remarkable personsay uh she's the most remarkable person I've ever met uh and I've met a lot ofI've ever met uh and I've met a lot ofI've ever met uh and I've met a lot of remarkable people and I'm incrediblyremarkable people and I'm incrediblyremarkable people and I'm incredibly fortunate to spend a very highfortunate to spend a very highfortunate to spend a very high percentage of my life time with her everpercentage of my life time with her everpercentage of my life time with her ever since I met her uh you know six yearssince I met her uh you know six yearssince I met her uh you know six years ago so she's been a help to through someago so she's been a help to through some
ago so she's been a help to through some of the rough moments you describe forof the rough moments you describe forof the rough moments you describe for sure I mean I met her at the bottom uhsure I mean I met her at the bottom uhsure I mean I met her at the bottom uh which is not a bad place to meet someonewhich is not a bad place to meet someonewhich is not a bad place to meet someone if it worksif it worksif it works out uh is there some degree of uh yinout uh is there some degree of uh yinout uh is there some degree of uh yin yang with the two personalities you haveyang with the two personalities you haveyang with the two personalities you have you have described yourself as uhyou have described yourself as uhyou have described yourself as uh emotional and so on but it does seem youemotional and so on but it does seem youemotional and so on but it does seem you the two of you have slightly differentthe two of you have slightly differentthe two of you have slightly different styles about how you approach the worldstyles about how you approach the worldstyles about how you approach the world well interestingly we there's we have awell interestingly we there's we have awell interestingly we there's we have a lot of like um you know we come fromlot of like um you know we come fromlot of like um you know we come from very similar places in the world youvery similar places in the world youvery similar places in the world you know there are times where we feel likeknow there are times where we feel likeknow there are times where we feel like we've known each other for centuries youwe've known each other for centuries youwe've known each other for centuries you know I met her parents for the firstknow I met her parents for the firstknow I met her parents for the first time uh you know a long time ago almosttime uh you know a long time ago almosttime uh you know a long time ago almost six years ago as well and uh I knew hersix years ago as well and uh I knew hersix years ago as well and uh I knew her parents were from Eastern Europeparents were from Eastern Europeparents were from Eastern Europe originally so I asked her father likeoriginally so I asked her father likeoriginally so I asked her father like what you know what city that her familywhat you know what city that her familywhat you know what city that her family come fromcome fromcome from originally and uh I called my father uh
originally and uh I called my father uhoriginally and uh I called my father uh and asked him you know Dad what's youand asked him you know Dad what's youand asked him you know Dad what's you know Grandpa Abraham where's he what'sknow Grandpa Abraham where's he what'sknow Grandpa Abraham where's he what's the name of the city and then I put uhthe name of the city and then I put uhthe name of the city and then I put uh the two CI into Google Maps and theythe two CI into Google Maps and theythe two CI into Google Maps and they were 52 miles apart which I thought waswere 52 miles apart which I thought waswere 52 miles apart which I thought was pretty cool um then of course at somepretty cool um then of course at somepretty cool um then of course at some point we did geneticpoint we did geneticpoint we did genetic testing make sure we weren't relatedtesting make sure we weren't relatedtesting make sure we weren't related yeah which we were not um but uh weyeah which we were not um but uh weyeah which we were not um but uh we share incredible commonality onshare incredible commonality onshare incredible commonality on values uh we are attracted to the samevalues uh we are attracted to the samevalues uh we are attracted to the same kind of people you know she loves mykind of people you know she loves mykind of people you know she loves my friends I love hers uh we love doing thefriends I love hers uh we love doing thefriends I love hers uh we love doing the same kind of things uh we're attractedsame kind of things uh we're attractedsame kind of things uh we're attracted to you know we like spending time theto you know we like spending time theto you know we like spending time the same way umsame way umsame way um and she has yes more emotion uh moreand she has yes more emotion uh moreand she has yes more emotion uh more Elegance U she doesn't like battles butElegance U she doesn't like battles butElegance U she doesn't like battles but she's very strong uh but she's moreshe's very strong uh but she's moreshe's very strong uh but she's more sensitive than I am yeah you you aresensitive than I am yeah you you aresensitive than I am yeah you you are constantly in multiple battles at theconstantly in multiple battles at theconstantly in multiple battles at the same time and there's often the mediasame time and there's often the mediasame time and there's often the media social media is just fire everywhere you
social media is just fire everywhere yousocial media is just fire everywhere you know that hasn't really been the caseknow that hasn't really been the caseknow that hasn't really been the case for a while I've had Rel of Peace for afor a while I've had Rel of Peace for afor a while I've had Rel of Peace for a long time because I as I stopped beinglong time because I as I stopped beinglong time because I as I stopped being as I haven't had to be the kind ofas I haven't had to be the kind ofas I haven't had to be the kind of activist I was earlier in my career uh Iactivist I was earlier in my career uh Iactivist I was earlier in my career uh I think since October 7th yes I do feelthink since October 7th yes I do feelthink since October 7th yes I do feel like I've been in a war can you tell melike I've been in a war can you tell melike I've been in a war can you tell me The Saga of the accusations against NarThe Saga of the accusations against NarThe Saga of the accusations against Nar so I did not actually surface theso I did not actually surface theso I did not actually surface the plagiarism allegations against uhplagiarism allegations against uhplagiarism allegations against uh president gay that surfaced by you knowpresident gay that surfaced by you knowpresident gay that surfaced by you know Aaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo asAaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo asAaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo as well or maybe Chris helped promote whatwell or maybe Chris helped promote whatwell or maybe Chris helped promote what Aaron and some Anonymous person uhAaron and some Anonymous person uhAaron and some Anonymous person uh identified but I certainly it was aidentified but I certainly it was aidentified but I certainly it was a point in time where the board had saidpoint in time where the board had saidpoint in time where the board had said we're 100% behind her and uh unanimouslywe're 100% behind her and uh unanimouslywe're 100% behind her and uh unanimously and I really felt you had to go so itand I really felt you had to go so itand I really felt you had to go so it didn't bother me at all that they haddidn't bother me at all that they haddidn't bother me at all that they had identified problems with her work so Iidentified problems with her work so Iidentified problems with her work so I shared I I reposted those posts and thenshared I I reposted those posts and then
shared I I reposted those posts and then when the board she ultimately resignedwhen the board she ultimately resignedwhen the board she ultimately resigned and she got a $900,000 a yearand she got a $900,000 a yearand she got a $900,000 a year professorship continuing at Harvard Iprofessorship continuing at Harvard Iprofessorship continuing at Harvard I said look in light of her limitedsaid look in light of her limitedsaid look in light of her limited academic recordacademic recordacademic record and these plagiarism allegations I she Iand these plagiarism allegations I she Iand these plagiarism allegations I she I she had toshe had toshe had to go um I knew when I did so I assumed Igo um I knew when I did so I assumed Igo um I knew when I did so I assumed I was actually a bit paranoid about thatwas actually a bit paranoid about thatwas actually a bit paranoid about that thesis I had written I only had onethesis I had written I only had onethesis I had written I only had one academicacademicacademic work um but I hadn't checked it forwork um but I hadn't checked it forwork um but I hadn't checked it for plagiarism and I thought that's GNAplagiarism and I thought that's GNAplagiarism and I thought that's GNA that's going to happen actually I had itthat's going to happen actually I had itthat's going to happen actually I had it uh I I had someone I I did not have auh I I had someone I I did not have auh I I had someone I I did not have a copy on hand so I got a copy of mycopy on hand so I got a copy of mycopy on hand so I got a copy of my thesis and I and I remember writing itthesis and I and I remember writing itthesis and I and I remember writing it Harvard at the time was pretty uh theyHarvard at the time was pretty uh theyHarvard at the time was pretty uh they kind of gave you a lecture about makingkind of gave you a lecture about makingkind of gave you a lecture about making sure you have all your footnotes andsure you have all your footnotes andsure you have all your footnotes and quotation marks I learned later thatquotation marks I learned later thatquotation marks I learned later that apparently they had a copy of my thesisapparently they had a copy of my thesisapparently they had a copy of my thesis at the New York Public Library and aat the New York Public Library and aat the New York Public Library and a member of the media told me he was theremember of the media told me he was there
member of the media told me he was there uh online with you know a dozen otheruh online with you know a dozen otheruh online with you know a dozen other members of the media all trying to get amembers of the media all trying to get amembers of the media all trying to get a copy of my thesis to run it through somecopy of my thesis to run it through somecopy of my thesis to run it through some AI they had to First do opticalAI they had to First do opticalAI they had to First do optical character recognition to convert the uhcharacter recognition to convert the uhcharacter recognition to convert the uh paper document into uh digital um butpaper document into uh digital um butpaper document into uh digital um but fortunately uh through a miracle uh Ifortunately uh through a miracle uh Ifortunately uh through a miracle uh I didn't have an issue I didn't thinkdidn't have an issue I didn't thinkdidn't have an issue I didn't think about ner of course who has whatever 130about ner of course who has whatever 130about ner of course who has whatever 130 academicacademic works and so we were just at the end ofworks and so we were just at the end ofworks and so we were just at the end of a vacation for Christmas break and uh Ia vacation for Christmas break and uh Ia vacation for Christmas break and uh I was early in the morning uh for vacationwas early in the morning uh for vacationwas early in the morning uh for vacation time and uh all of a sudden I hear mytime and uh all of a sudden I hear mytime and uh all of a sudden I hear my phone ringing in the other room orphone ringing in the other room orphone ringing in the other room or vibrating in the other room multiplevibrating in the other room multiplevibrating in the other room multiple times I'm like I pick up the phone it'stimes I'm like I pick up the phone it'stimes I'm like I pick up the phone it's our communication guy friend Miguel andour communication guy friend Miguel andour communication guy friend Miguel and he's like bill um Business Insider hashe's like bill um Business Insider hashe's like bill um Business Insider has apparently identified a number ofapparently identified a number ofapparently identified a number of instances of plagiarism in nar'sinstances of plagiarism in nar'sinstances of plagiarism in nar's dissertation let me send you this emaildissertation let me send you this emaildissertation let me send you this email he sent me the email and uh they had
he sent me the email and uh they hadhe sent me the email and uh they had identified four paragraphs in her 330identified four paragraphs in her 330identified four paragraphs in her 330 page dissertation where she had citedpage dissertation where she had citedpage dissertation where she had cited the author but she had used the vastthe author but she had used the vastthe author but she had used the vast majority of the words and that thosemajority of the words and that thosemajority of the words and that those paragraphs were from the author and sheparagraphs were from the author and sheparagraphs were from the author and she should have used quotation marks andshould have used quotation marks andshould have used quotation marks and then there was one case where shethen there was one case where shethen there was one case where she paraphrased correctly an authorparaphrased correctly an authorparaphrased correctly an author uh but did not uh footnote that it wasuh but did not uh footnote that it wasuh but did not uh footnote that it was from hisfrom hisfrom his work uh and so we were presented withwork uh and so we were presented withwork uh and so we were presented with this and told they're going to publishthis and told they're going to publishthis and told they're going to publish in a few hours and we're like well canin a few hours and we're like well canin a few hours and we're like well can we get to the next day we're just on youwe get to the next day we're just on youwe get to the next day we're just on you about to head home and they're like noabout to head home and they're like noabout to head home and they're like no we're publishing by noon we need anwe're publishing by noon we need anwe're publishing by noon we need an answer by noon and uh so we downloadedanswer by noon and uh so we downloadedanswer by noon and uh so we downloaded the copy of her thesis on like the slowthe copy of her thesis on like the slowthe copy of her thesis on like the slow internet and uh you know ner checked itinternet and uh you know ner checked itinternet and uh you know ner checked it out and she said you know what looksout and she said you know what looksout and she said you know what looks like they're right uh and I said looklike they're right uh and I said looklike they're right uh and I said look you should just admit admit your mistakeyou should just admit admit your mistake
you should just admit admit your mistake and she wrote a very simple gracious yesand she wrote a very simple gracious yesand she wrote a very simple gracious yes I should have used quotation marks andI should have used quotation marks andI should have used quotation marks and on the author I failed to site uh sheon the author I failed to site uh sheon the author I failed to site uh she pointed out that she cited them eightpointed out that she cited them eightpointed out that she cited them eight other times and wrote a severalother times and wrote a severalother times and wrote a several paragraph uh section of her thesisparagraph uh section of her thesisparagraph uh section of her thesis acknowledging you know his work um andacknowledging you know his work um andacknowledging you know his work um and none of these were like important partsnone of these were like important partsnone of these were like important parts of her thesis but she acknowledged herof her thesis but she acknowledged herof her thesis but she acknowledged her mistake and she said you apologize formistake and she said you apologize formistake and she said you apologize for my mistake and I apologize to the authormy mistake and I apologize to the authormy mistake and I apologize to the author who I failed to site and I stand on thewho I failed to site and I stand on thewho I failed to site and I stand on the shoulders of uh you know all the peopleshoulders of uh you know all the peopleshoulders of uh you know all the people came before me and looking to advancecame before me and looking to advancecame before me and looking to advance work we sort of thought it was over wework we sort of thought it was over wework we sort of thought it was over we head homehead homehead home um in flight on the way home although weum in flight on the way home although weum in flight on the way home although we didn't realize this till we got back thedidn't realize this till we got back thedidn't realize this till we got back the following day uh Business Insiderfollowing day uh Business Insiderfollowing day uh Business Insider published another article and it saidpublished another article and it saidpublished another article and it said ner oxman admits toner oxman admits toner oxman admits to plagiarism plagiarism of course isplagiarism plagiarism of course isplagiarism plagiarism of course is academic fraud and this thing goes crazy
academic fraud and this thing goes crazyacademic fraud and this thing goes crazy viral oh Bill the title is Bill amman'sviral oh Bill the title is Bill amman'sviral oh Bill the title is Bill amman's wife MHwife MHwife MH celebrity academic ner oxman and theycelebrity academic ner oxman and theycelebrity academic ner oxman and they use the term celebrityuse the term celebrityuse the term celebrity because there are limits to whatbecause there are limits to whatbecause there are limits to what legitimate media can go after but youlegitimate media can go after but youlegitimate media can go after but you know celebrities there's a lot moreknow celebrities there's a lot moreknow celebrities there's a lot more leeway in the media into what they canleeway in the media into what they canleeway in the media into what they can say so that's why they call her asay so that's why they call her asay so that's why they call her a celebrity first time ever she'd beencelebrity first time ever she'd beencelebrity first time ever she'd been called acalled acalled a celebrity and uh and they they basicallycelebrity and uh and they they basicallycelebrity and uh and they they basically she's admitting to academic fraud andshe's admitting to academic fraud andshe's admitting to academic fraud and then they said and then the nextthen they said and then the nextthen they said and then the next day uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember theday uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember theday uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember the timeline pretty well uh an email wastimeline pretty well uh an email wastimeline pretty well uh an email was sent to Fran McGillsent to Fran McGillsent to Fran McGill saying um you know we've identified yousaying um you know we've identified yousaying um you know we've identified you know two dozen other instances ofknow two dozen other instances ofknow two dozen other instances of plagiarism in her work 15 of which areplagiarism in her work 15 of which areplagiarism in her work 15 of which are Wikipedia entries where she copiedWikipedia entries where she copiedWikipedia entries where she copied definitions and uh the others weredefinitions and uh the others weredefinitions and uh the others were mostly software Hardware manuals formostly software Hardware manuals formostly software Hardware manuals for various devices or software she used invarious devices or software she used invarious devices or software she used in her work most of which were in footnotes
her work most of which were in footnotesher work most of which were in footnotes where she described a nozzle for a 3Dwhere she described a nozzle for a 3Dwhere she described a nozzle for a 3D printer or something likeprinter or something likeprinter or something like this and they said we're publishing youthis and they said we're publishing youthis and they said we're publishing you knowknow tonight the email they sent to us wastonight the email they sent to us wastonight the email they sent to us was 6900 words it was 12 Pages was6900 words it was 12 Pages was6900 words it was 12 Pages was practically inable you couldn't evenpractically inable you couldn't evenpractically inable you couldn't even read it in an hour and we didn't haveread it in an hour and we didn't haveread it in an hour and we didn't have some of the documents they weresome of the documents they weresome of the documents they were referring to and I'm like Nar you knowreferring to and I'm like Nar you knowreferring to and I'm like Nar you know what I'm going to do it I think it wouldwhat I'm going to do it I think it wouldwhat I'm going to do it I think it would be useful to provide contextbe useful to provide contextbe useful to provide context here uh I'm going to do a review ofhere uh I'm going to do a review ofhere uh I'm going to do a review of every MIT professor's dissertationsevery MIT professor's dissertationsevery MIT professor's dissertations every published paper AI has enabledevery published paper AI has enabledevery published paper AI has enabled this um and so that was I put on a tweetthis um and so that was I put on a tweetthis um and so that was I put on a tweet basically saying that and we're doing abasically saying that and we're doing abasically saying that and we're doing a test run now we have to get it right andtest run now we have to get it right andtest run now we have to get it right and I think would be a useful exerciseI think would be a useful exerciseI think would be a useful exercise provide some context if you will andprovide some context if you will andprovide some context if you will and then this thing goes crazy viral uhthen this thing goes crazy viral uhthen this thing goes crazy viral uh and you know ner is a pretty sensitiveand you know ner is a pretty sensitiveand you know ner is a pretty sensitive person pretty emotional person andperson pretty emotional person and
person pretty emotional person and someone who's asomeone who's asomeone who's a perfectionist and having everyone in theperfectionist and having everyone in theperfectionist and having everyone in the world thinking you committed academicworld thinking you committed academicworld thinking you committed academic fraud is a pretty daming thing now theyfraud is a pretty daming thing now theyfraud is a pretty daming thing now they did say they did a thorough review ofdid say they did a thorough review ofdid say they did a thorough review of all of her work and this is what theyall of her work and this is what theyall of her work and this is what they found I'm like sweethe that's remarkablefound I'm like sweethe that's remarkablefound I'm like sweethe that's remarkable I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer-I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer-I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer- reviewed blah blah blah and she'sreviewed blah blah blah and she'sreviewed blah blah blah and she's published in nature science and allpublished in nature science and allpublished in nature science and all these different Publications that'sthese different Publications that'sthese different Publications that's actually it's a pretty good battingactually it's a pretty good battingactually it's a pretty good batting average but you know they can't this isaverage but you know they can't this isaverage but you know they can't this is wrong right this is not academic fraudwrong right this is not academic fraudwrong right this is not academic fraud okay these are inadvertent mistakes andokay these are inadvertent mistakes andokay these are inadvertent mistakes and the Wikipedia entries ner actually usedthe Wikipedia entries ner actually usedthe Wikipedia entries ner actually used Wikipedia as a dictionary this is theWikipedia as a dictionary this is theWikipedia as a dictionary this is the early days of Wikipedia and they alsoearly days of Wikipedia and they alsoearly days of Wikipedia and they also referred to the MIT handbook which has areferred to the MIT handbook which has areferred to the MIT handbook which has a whole section on plagiarism academicwhole section on plagiarism academicwhole section on plagiarism academic handbook and if you read it which Ihandbook and if you read it which Ihandbook and if you read it which I ultimately did they make clear a fewultimately did they make clear a few
ultimately did they make clear a few things number one there's plagiarismthings number one there's plagiarismthings number one there's plagiarism academic fraud and there's what theyacademic fraud and there's what theyacademic fraud and there's what they call inadvertent plagiarism which iscall inadvertent plagiarism which iscall inadvertent plagiarism which is clerical errors where you make a mistakeclerical errors where you make a mistakeclerical errors where you make a mistake and it depends on intent and there's aand it depends on intent and there's aand it depends on intent and there's a link that you can go to which is alink that you can go to which is alink that you can go to which is a section on if you get investigated MITsection on if you get investigated MITsection on if you get investigated MIT what happens what's the procedure what'swhat happens what's the procedure what'swhat happens what's the procedure what's the initial stage what's thethe initial stage what's thethe initial stage what's the investigative stage what's the procedureinvestigative stage what's the procedureinvestigative stage what's the procedure if they identify it and they make veryif they identify it and they make veryif they identify it and they make very clear that academic fraud is and theyclear that academic fraud is and theyclear that academic fraud is and they list plagiarism you know research theftlist plagiarism you know research theftlist plagiarism you know research theft a few other things but it does nota few other things but it does nota few other things but it does not include honest errors honest errors areinclude honest errors honest errors areinclude honest errors honest errors are not plagiarism under mit's own policiesnot plagiarism under mit's own policiesnot plagiarism under mit's own policies and in the handbook they also have a bigand in the handbook they also have a bigand in the handbook they also have a big section of what they call commonsection of what they call commonsection of what they call common knowledge and common knowledge dependsknowledge and common knowledge dependsknowledge and common knowledge depends on who you're writing your thesison who you're writing your thesison who you're writing your thesis for uh and so if it's a fact that isfor uh and so if it's a fact that isfor uh and so if it's a fact that is known by your audience you're not
known by your audience you're notknown by your audience you're not required to quote or site and so allrequired to quote or site and so allrequired to quote or site and so all those Wikipedia entries were for thingsthose Wikipedia entries were for thingsthose Wikipedia entries were for things like sustainable design computer AEDlike sustainable design computer AEDlike sustainable design computer AED design she just took a definition fromdesign she just took a definition fromdesign she just took a definition from Wikipedia common knowledge to herWikipedia common knowledge to herWikipedia common knowledge to her readers no obligation under the handbookreaders no obligation under the handbookreaders no obligation under the handbook totally exempt on the using the sametotally exempt on the using the sametotally exempt on the using the same words she referred to like an whateverwords she referred to like an whateverwords she referred to like an whatever some kind of 3D printer she was thesome kind of 3D printer she was thesome kind of 3D printer she was the straty 3D printer and she quoted fromstraty 3D printer and she quoted fromstraty 3D printer and she quoted from the manual right away strates as athe manual right away strates as athe manual right away strates as a company you consulted for they're verycompany you consulted for they're verycompany you consulted for they're very you don't need to that's not somethingyou don't need to that's not somethingyou don't need to that's not something you're not stealing their ideas you'reyou're not stealing their ideas you'reyou're not stealing their ideas you're describing a nozzle for a device you usedescribing a nozzle for a device you usedescribing a nozzle for a device you use in your work and a footnote that's not ain your work and a footnote that's not ain your work and a footnote that's not a theft of ideatheft of ideatheft of idea right and so I'm like this is crazy andright and so I'm like this is crazy andright and so I'm like this is crazy and so this has got to stop and so I reachso this has got to stop and so I reachso this has got to stop and so I reach out to uh the a guy I knew was on theout to uh the a guy I knew was on theout to uh the a guy I knew was on the board of Business Insider the chairmanboard of Business Insider the chairmanboard of Business Insider the chairman and his name is going to come public
and his name is going to come publicand his name is going to come public shortly I committed to that time to keepshortly I committed to that time to keepshortly I committed to that time to keep his name confidential it's now surfacedhis name confidential it's now surfacedhis name confidential it's now surfaced publicly in the Press can I just pausepublicly in the Press can I just pausepublicly in the Press can I just pause real quick here just toreal quick here just toreal quick here just to I don't know there's a lot of things II don't know there's a lot of things II don't know there's a lot of things I want to say but you made it pretty clearwant to say but you made it pretty clearwant to say but you made it pretty clear but just as a member of thebut just as a member of thebut just as a member of the community there's also like a commoncommunity there's also like a commoncommunity there's also like a common sense test I think you're more preciselysense test I think you're more preciselysense test I think you're more precisely like legal and looking at but there'slike legal and looking at but there'slike legal and looking at but there's just like a bullshit test and likejust like a bullshit test and likejust like a bullshit test and like nothing that ner did is plagiarism innothing that ner did is plagiarism innothing that ner did is plagiarism in the bad meaning of the word plagiarismthe bad meaning of the word plagiarismthe bad meaning of the word plagiarism right now is becoming another ISM likeright now is becoming another ISM likeright now is becoming another ISM like racist ISM or so on using an attack wordracist ISM or so on using an attack wordracist ISM or so on using an attack word I don't care what the meaning of it isI don't care what the meaning of it isI don't care what the meaning of it is but there's the bad academic fraud likebut there's the bad academic fraud likebut there's the bad academic fraud like theft yes theft of an idea and maybe youtheft yes theft of an idea and maybe youtheft yes theft of an idea and maybe you can say a lot of definitions and thiscan say a lot of definitions and thiscan say a lot of definitions and this kind of stuff but then there's just akind of stuff but then there's just akind of stuff but then there's just a basic bullshit test where everyone knowsbasic bullshit test where everyone knowsbasic bullshit test where everyone knows this is a thief and this is definitely
this is a thief and this is definitelythis is a thief and this is definitely not a thief and there's nothing aboutnot a thief and there's nothing aboutnot a thief and there's nothing about anything that ner did anything in heranything that ner did anything in heranything that ner did anything in her thesis or in her life everyone thatthesis or in her life everyone thatthesis or in her life everyone that knows her she's a rock star right I justknows her she's a rock star right I justknows her she's a rock star right I just want to make it clear it really hurt mewant to make it clear it really hurt mewant to make it clear it really hurt me that the internet whatever is happeningthat the internet whatever is happeningthat the internet whatever is happening could go after could goafter a great scientist because I loveafter a great scientist because I love science and I love celebrating greatscience and I love celebrating greatscience and I love celebrating great scientists and it's just really messedscientists and it's just really messedscientists and it's just really messed up that whatever the machine and we canup that whatever the machine and we canup that whatever the machine and we can talk about business inside or whatevertalk about business inside or whatevertalk about business inside or whatever uh socialuh socialuh social media Mass hysteria whatever ismedia Mass hysteria whatever ismedia Mass hysteria whatever is happening like we need the greathappening like we need the greathappening like we need the great scientists of the world cuz that's likescientists of the world cuz that's likescientists of the world cuz that's like the future depends on them and so wethe future depends on them and so wethe future depends on them and so we need to celebrate them and protect themneed to celebrate them and protect themneed to celebrate them and protect them and let them flourish and let their doand let them flourish and let their doand let them flourish and let their do their thing and like keep them out oftheir thing and like keep them out oftheir thing and like keep them out of this what whatever shit storm that we'rethis what whatever shit storm that we'rethis what whatever shit storm that we're doing to get clicks and advertisementsdoing to get clicks and advertisementsdoing to get clicks and advertisements and drama and all this kind we need toand drama and all this kind we need to
and drama and all this kind we need to protect them so I just want to say thereprotect them so I just want to say thereprotect them so I just want to say there there's no there's nobody I know andthere's no there's nobody I know andthere's no there's nobody I know and million friends uh that are scientistsmillion friends uh that are scientistsmillion friends uh that are scientists uh world- class scientists snowballuh world- class scientists snowballuh world- class scientists snowball Prize winners they all love ner they allPrize winners they all love ner they allPrize winners they all love ner they all respect ner there's she did zerorespect ner there's she did zerorespect ner there's she did zero wrong and then the rest of thewrong and then the rest of thewrong and then the rest of the conversation we can have about howconversation we can have about howconversation we can have about how broken journalism is and so on but likebroken journalism is and so on but likebroken journalism is and so on but like I just want to say that there's nothingI just want to say that there's nothingI just want to say that there's nothing um that ner did wrong it's not a greatum that ner did wrong it's not a greatum that ner did wrong it's not a great area or so on I also personally don'tarea or so on I also personally don'tarea or so on I also personally don't love that claudian gay is a discussionlove that claudian gay is a discussionlove that claudian gay is a discussion about plagiarism because it distractsabout plagiarism because it distractsabout plagiarism because it distracts from thefrom thefrom the fundamentals that is broken um it'sfundamentals that is broken um it'sfundamentals that is broken um it's becomes some weird technicalbecomes some weird technicalbecomes some weird technical discussion but in case ner did nothingdiscussion but in case ner did nothingdiscussion but in case ner did nothing wrong great scientist great engineer atwrong great scientist great engineer atwrong great scientist great engineer at MIT and Beyond she's doing the coolMIT and Beyond she's doing the coolMIT and Beyond she's doing the cool thing now so anyway could not have saidthing now so anyway could not have saidthing now so anyway could not have said it better myself now obviously I'mit better myself now obviously I'mit better myself now obviously I'm focused on the technical part right he
focused on the technical part right hefocused on the technical part right he want to be yes precise here well it'swant to be yes precise here well it'swant to be yes precise here well it's not even that I mean yes I have said uhnot even that I mean yes I have said uhnot even that I mean yes I have said uh that we're going to sue Business Insiderthat we're going to sue Business Insiderthat we're going to sue Business Insider and and in 35 years of my career ofand and in 35 years of my career ofand and in 35 years of my career of someone who is not every article hassomeone who is not every article hassomeone who is not every article has been a favorable one not article hasbeen a favorable one not article hasbeen a favorable one not article has been an accurate one I've neverbeen an accurate one I've neverbeen an accurate one I've never threatened to sue the media and I'vethreatened to sue the media and I'vethreatened to sue the media and I've never sued the media uh but this is sonever sued the media uh but this is sonever sued the media uh but this is so egregious it's not just that she didegregious it's not just that she didegregious it's not just that she did nothing wrong but they accused her ofnothing wrong but they accused her ofnothing wrong but they accused her of academic fraud they did it knowing theyacademic fraud they did it knowing theyacademic fraud they did it knowing they they make reference to mit's ownthey make reference to mit's ownthey make reference to mit's own handbook so they had to read all thehandbook so they had to read all thehandbook so they had to read all the same stuff that I read in the handbooksame stuff that I read in the handbooksame stuff that I read in the handbook uh they did thatuh they did thatuh they did that work then after I you know escalatedwork then after I you know escalatedwork then after I you know escalated this thing to the you know Henry bed thethis thing to the you know Henry bed thethis thing to the you know Henry bed the chairman of Business Insider to the CEOchairman of Business Insider to the CEOchairman of Business Insider to the CEO of Axel Springer I even reached out toof Axel Springer I even reached out toof Axel Springer I even reached out to Henry kravis at a certain point in timeHenry kravis at a certain point in timeHenry kravis at a certain point in time one of the controlling shareholders ofone of the controlling shareholders of
one of the controlling shareholders of the company throughthe company throughthe company through KKRKKRKKR um laying out the factual errors in theum laying out the factual errors in theum laying out the factual errors in the article business iner went public afterarticle business iner went public afterarticle business iner went public after they said ner committed academic fraudthey said ner committed academic fraudthey said ner committed academic fraud and plagiarism and said we never CH weand plagiarism and said we never CH weand plagiarism and said we never CH we didn't challenge any the facts remaindidn't challenge any the facts remaindidn't challenge any the facts remain Undisputed in the article so so it'sUndisputed in the article so so it'sUndisputed in the article so so it's basically Nar committed plagiarismbasically Nar committed plagiarismbasically Nar committed plagiarism that's Story one ner admits tothat's Story one ner admits tothat's Story one ner admits to plagiarism she admits to plagiarism sheplagiarism she admits to plagiarism sheplagiarism she admits to plagiarism she admitted to she admitted to making a fewadmitted to she admitted to making a fewadmitted to she admitted to making a few clerical errors that's the only thingclerical errors that's the only thingclerical errors that's the only thing she admitted to and she graciouslyshe admitted to and she graciouslyshe admitted to and she graciously apologized so they said ner admits toapologized so they said ner admits toapologized so they said ner admits to plagiarism apologizes for plagiarismplagiarism apologizes for plagiarismplagiarism apologizes for plagiarism that's incredibly damning and by the waythat's incredibly damning and by the waythat's incredibly damning and by the way we're doing an investigation becausewe're doing an investigation becausewe're doing an investigation because we're concerned that there might havewe're concerned that there might havewe're concerned that there might have been inappropriate process but the factsbeen inappropriate process but the factsbeen inappropriate process but the facts of the story have not been disputed byof the story have not been disputed byof the story have not been disputed by ner oxman or Bill akman and that wasner oxman or Bill akman and that wasner oxman or Bill akman and that was totally false I had done it privately Itotally false I had done it privately I
totally false I had done it privately I done it publicly on Twitter on X I laiddone it publicly on Twitter on X I laiddone it publicly on Twitter on X I laid out I I have a whole text stream aout I I have a whole text stream aout I I have a whole text stream a WhatsApp stream with the CEO of theWhatsApp stream with the CEO of theWhatsApp stream with the CEO of the company and they and they double downcompany and they and they double downcompany and they and they double down and they double down again and so Iand they double down again and so Iand they double down again and so I don't sue peopledon't sue peopledon't sue people lightly and uh you stay tuned solightly and uh you stay tuned solightly and uh you stay tuned so you're at least for now moving forwardyou're at least for now moving forwardyou're at least for now moving forward with it's a certainty we're movingwith it's a certainty we're movingwith it's a certainty we're moving forward uh there's a step we can takeforward uh there's a step we can takeforward uh there's a step we can take prior to suing themprior to suing themprior to suing them where wewhere wewhere we basically send them a letter demandingbasically send them a letter demandingbasically send them a letter demanding they make a series ofthey make a series ofthey make a series of Corrections that if they if they don'tCorrections that if they if they don'tCorrections that if they if they don't make those Corrections the next step ismake those Corrections the next step ismake those Corrections the next step is litigation I hope we can avoid the nextlitigation I hope we can avoid the nextlitigation I hope we can avoid the next step and I'm just making sure that we westep and I'm just making sure that we westep and I'm just making sure that we we present the demand to Business Insiderpresent the demand to Business Insiderpresent the demand to Business Insider and ultimately to Axel Springer thatand ultimately to Axel Springer thatand ultimately to Axel Springer that it's incredibly clear how they defamedit's incredibly clear how they defamedit's incredibly clear how they defamed her the factual mistakes in her storiesher the factual mistakes in her storiesher the factual mistakes in her stories uh and what they they need to do to fixuh and what they they need to do to fixuh and what they they need to do to fix it and if we can fix it there we can
it and if we can fix it there we canit and if we can fix it there we can move on from this episode and hopefullymove on from this episode and hopefullymove on from this episode and hopefully avoidavoidavoid litigation um so that's where we are Ilitigation um so that's where we are Ilitigation um so that's where we are I don't know you're smarter than medon't know you're smarter than medon't know you're smarter than me there's technical stuff there's legalthere's technical stuff there's legalthere's technical stuff there's legal stuff there's journalistic stuff butstuff there's journalistic stuff butstuff there's journalistic stuff but just fuck you Business Insider for doingjust fuck you Business Insider for doingjust fuck you Business Insider for doing this I don'tthis I don'tthis I don't know I don't know much in this world butknow I don't know much in this world butknow I don't know much in this world but journalists aren't supposed to do thatjournalists aren't supposed to do thatjournalists aren't supposed to do that no look it we're going to surface allno look it we're going to surface allno look it we're going to surface all this stuff publiclythis stuff publiclythis stuff publicly ultimately the email was not to nerultimately the email was not to nerultimately the email was not to ner saying there was plagiarism in her worksaying there was plagiarism in her worksaying there was plagiarism in her work the email came from a reporter namedthe email came from a reporter namedthe email came from a reporter named Katherine long and the headline was yourKatherine long and the headline was yourKatherine long and the headline was your wife committed plagiarism shouldn't shewife committed plagiarism shouldn't shewife committed plagiarism shouldn't she be fired from MIT just like you causedbe fired from MIT just like you causedbe fired from MIT just like you caused clotting gay to be fired from Harvardclotting gay to be fired from Harvardclotting gay to be fired from Harvard yeah it it was ayeah it it was ayeah it it was a political agenda she doesn't like mepolitical agenda she doesn't like mepolitical agenda she doesn't like me okay and she was trying to hurt me andokay and she was trying to hurt me andokay and she was trying to hurt me and they couldn't find plagiar in my thesisthey couldn't find plagiar in my thesisthey couldn't find plagiar in my thesis and you know being the subject of short
and you know being the subject of shortand you know being the subject of short being a short seller the Herbal Lifebeing a short seller the Herbal Lifebeing a short seller the Herbal Life battle went on for yearsbattle went on for yearsbattle went on for years uh they tried to do everything touh they tried to do everything touh they tried to do everything to destroy my reputation so they alreadydestroy my reputation so they alreadydestroy my reputation so they already gone through my trash they already donegone through my trash they already donegone through my trash they already done all that work so uh anything they couldall that work so uh anything they couldall that work so uh anything they could possibly find you know and I I I've I'vepossibly find you know and I I I've I'vepossibly find you know and I I I've I've always lived a very clean life okayalways lived a very clean life okayalways lived a very clean life okay thankfully and if you're going to be anthankfully and if you're going to be anthankfully and if you're going to be an activist short seller you better becauseactivist short seller you better becauseactivist short seller you better because they're going to find out dirt on you ifthey're going to find out dirt on you ifthey're going to find out dirt on you if it exists and so they're like how can weit exists and so they're like how can weit exists and so they're like how can we really hurt bill by the way MIT ner hadreally hurt bill by the way MIT ner hadreally hurt bill by the way MIT ner had left MIT years earlier when the reporterleft MIT years earlier when the reporterleft MIT years earlier when the reporter found out she was no longer a member offound out she was no longer a member offound out she was no longer a member of the MIT faculty they were enraged theythe MIT faculty they were enraged theythe MIT faculty they were enraged they didn't believe us they made us like youdidn't believe us they made us like youdidn't believe us they made us like you know prove to us she's no longer on theknow prove to us she's no longer on theknow prove to us she's no longer on the M fact because they wanted to get herM fact because they wanted to get herM fact because they wanted to get her fired and by the way malice is one offired and by the way malice is one offired and by the way malice is one of the you know uh important factors inthe you know uh important factors in
the you know uh important factors in determining whether someone whetherdetermining whether someone whetherdetermining whether someone whether defamation taken place and this was adefamation taken place and this was adefamation taken place and this was a malice driven uh this was not about newsmalice driven uh this was not about newsmalice driven uh this was not about news and the S the unfortunate thing aboutand the S the unfortunate thing aboutand the S the unfortunate thing about journalism is business ins made ajournalism is business ins made ajournalism is business ins made a fortune from this this story wasfortune from this this story wasfortune from this this story was published and republished by thousandspublished and republished by thousandspublished and republished by thousands of media organizations around the worldof media organizations around the worldof media organizations around the world world it was the number one trendingworld it was the number one trendingworld it was the number one trending thing on Twitter for like two days uh itthing on Twitter for like two days uh itthing on Twitter for like two days uh it every newspaper every was on the frontevery newspaper every was on the frontevery newspaper every was on the front page of every Israeli newspaper uh youpage of every Israeli newspaper uh youpage of every Israeli newspaper uh you know was on the front page of theknow was on the front page of theknow was on the front page of the financial times okay so this and she'sfinancial times okay so this and she'sfinancial times okay so this and she's building a business and you know if ifbuilding a business and you know if ifbuilding a business and you know if if you're CEO of a science company and youyou're CEO of a science company and youyou're CEO of a science company and you commited academic fraud that'scommited academic fraud that'scommited academic fraud that's incredibly damaging but I ultimatelyincredibly damaging but I ultimatelyincredibly damaging but I ultimately convinced her that this was good I saidconvinced her that this was good I saidconvinced her that this was good I said sweetheart you're amazing you'resweetheart you're amazing you'resweetheart you're amazing you're incredible you're incredibly talentedincredible you're incredibly talentedincredible you're incredibly talented but you're mostly known in the designbut you're mostly known in the design
but you're mostly known in the design world now everyone in the universe okayworld now everyone in the universe okayworld now everyone in the universe okay has heard of ner oxman okay we're goinghas heard of ner oxman okay we're goinghas heard of ner oxman okay we're going to get this thing cleared up you'reto get this thing cleared up you'reto get this thing cleared up you're going to be doing an event in in sixgoing to be doing an event in in sixgoing to be doing an event in in six months where you're going to tell themonths where you're going to tell themonths where you're going to tell the world you're G to go out of stealth modeworld you're G to go out of stealth modeworld you're G to go out of stealth mode you can tell the world about all theyou can tell the world about all theyou can tell the world about all the incredible things that you building andincredible things that you building andincredible things that you building and you're designing and you're creating andyou're designing and you're creating andyou're designing and you're creating and you're going to it's going to be likeyou're going to it's going to be likeyou're going to it's going to be like the iPhone launch cuz everyone's goingthe iPhone launch cuz everyone's goingthe iPhone launch cuz everyone's going to be paying attention and they're goingto be paying attention and they're goingto be paying attention and they're going to going to want to see your work and uhto going to want to see your work and uhto going to want to see your work and uh you know that's how I try to cheer upyou know that's how I try to cheer upyou know that's how I try to cheer up but I think it's true it is true but andbut I think it's true it is true but andbut I think it's true it is true but and you're doing your your job is a goodyou're doing your your job is a goodyou're doing your your job is a good part in seeing the silver lining of allpart in seeing the silver lining of allpart in seeing the silver lining of all this how how is uh just from observingthis how how is uh just from observingthis how how is uh just from observing her howher howher how did uh she youdid uh she youdid uh she you know stay strong through all of theknow stay strong through all of theknow stay strong through all of the psychologically because at least I knowpsychologically because at least I knowpsychologically because at least I know she's pushing ahead with the work oh
she's pushing ahead with the work ohshe's pushing ahead with the work oh she's Full Speed Ahead in her work she'sshe's Full Speed Ahead in her work she'sshe's Full Speed Ahead in her work she's built an amazing team she's hired 30built an amazing team she's hired 30built an amazing team she's hired 30 scientists umscientists umscientists um roboticists people who uh biologistsroboticists people who uh biologistsroboticists people who uh biologists plant specialists materialplant specialists materialplant specialists material scientists engineers really Incrediblescientists engineers really Incrediblescientists engineers really Incredible Crew uh she's built this 36,000 foot labCrew uh she's built this 36,000 foot labCrew uh she's built this 36,000 foot lab in New York City that's a one of a kindin New York City that's a one of a kindin New York City that's a one of a kind it's still you know they're working outit's still you know they're working outit's still you know they're working out of it it's still under constructionof it it's still under constructionof it it's still under construction while they're working out ofwhile they're working out ofwhile they're working out of it um and so she's going to do amazingit um and so she's going to do amazingit um and so she's going to do amazing things but um as I said she's anthings but um as I said she's anthings but um as I said she's an extremely sensitive person she's aextremely sensitive person she's aextremely sensitive person she's a perfectionist okay imagine thinking thatperfectionist okay imagine thinking thatperfectionist okay imagine thinking that the entire world thinks you committedthe entire world thinks you committedthe entire world thinks you committed academic fraud and so that was very hardacademic fraud and so that was very hardacademic fraud and so that was very hard for her she's a very positive person butfor her she's a very positive person butfor her she's a very positive person but I saw her in I would say her darkestI saw her in I would say her darkestI saw her in I would say her darkest emotional period for sure she's doingemotional period for sure she's doingemotional period for sure she's doing much better now but you can kill someonemuch better now but you can kill someonemuch better now but you can kill someone you can kill someone with by destroyingyou can kill someone with by destroying
you can kill someone with by destroying the reputation people people committhe reputation people people committhe reputation people people commit suicide people go into these deep darksuicide people go into these deep darksuicide people go into these deep dark depression well my worry primarily whendepression well my worry primarily whendepression well my worry primarily when I saw what Business Insider was doing isI saw what Business Insider was doing isI saw what Business Insider was doing is uh that they might dim the light of auh that they might dim the light of auh that they might dim the light of a uh of a truly special scientist anduh of a truly special scientist anduh of a truly special scientist and Creator it's not going to happen but ICreator it's not going to happen but ICreator it's not going to happen but I also worry aboutalso worry aboutalso worry about others like ner young nar's that areothers like ner young nar's that areothers like ner young nar's that are that this sends a signal to um thatthat this sends a signal to um thatthat this sends a signal to um that might scare them and you know Jourmight scare them and you know Jourmight scare them and you know Jour journalism shouldn't scare aspiringjournalism shouldn't scare aspiringjournalism shouldn't scare aspiring young scientist the problem is theyoung scientist the problem is theyoung scientist the problem is the defamation law in the US is so favorabledefamation law in the US is so favorabledefamation law in the US is so favorable to the publisher to the media and soto the publisher to the media and soto the publisher to the media and so unfavorable uh to the victim and theunfavorable uh to the victim and theunfavorable uh to the victim and the incentives are all wrong you know theincentives are all wrong you know theincentives are all wrong you know the when you went from a paper version ofwhen you went from a paper version ofwhen you went from a paper version of Journalism to digital and you couldJournalism to digital and you couldJournalism to digital and you could track how many peopletrack how many peopletrack how many people click uh and it's a medium thatclick uh and it's a medium thatclick uh and it's a medium that advertising drives the economics and ifadvertising drives the economics and ifadvertising drives the economics and if you can show an Advertiser more clicksyou can show an Advertiser more clicks
you can show an Advertiser more clicks you can make more money right so ayou can make more money right so ayou can make more money right so a journalist is incentivized to write ajournalist is incentivized to write ajournalist is incentivized to write a story that will generate more clicks howstory that will generate more clicks howstory that will generate more clicks how you write a story the G more clicks youyou write a story the G more clicks youyou write a story the G more clicks you get a billionaire guy okay and then youget a billionaire guy okay and then youget a billionaire guy okay and then you go after his wife and you make ago after his wife and you make ago after his wife and you make a sensationalist story and you give themsensationalist story and you give themsensationalist story and you give them no time to respond right you know lookno time to respond right you know lookno time to respond right you know look at the timing here they on the firstat the timing here they on the firstat the timing here they on the first story you know they gave us three hoursstory you know they gave us three hoursstory you know they gave us three hours on the second one the following day 5:19on the second one the following day 5:19on the second one the following day 5:19 p.m. the email comes in not to ner notp.m. the email comes in not to ner notp.m. the email comes in not to ner not to her firm but to my communicationsto her firm but to my communicationsto her firm but to my communications person who tracks us down by 5:30 youperson who tracks us down by 5:30 youperson who tracks us down by 5:30 you know 10 minutes later and they publishedknow 10 minutes later and they publishedknow 10 minutes later and they published their story 92their story 92their story 92 minutes uh after and they sent us we'reminutes uh after and they sent us we'reminutes uh after and they sent us we're going to surface all these documents ingoing to surface all these documents ingoing to surface all these documents in ourourour demand read the email they sent whetherdemand read the email they sent whetherdemand read the email they sent whether you could even decipher it it's you knowyou could even decipher it it's you knowyou could even decipher it it's you know it's uh there was no and by the wayit's uh there was no and by the wayit's uh there was no and by the way there's a reason why academic
there's a reason why academicthere's a reason why academic institutions when a professors isinstitutions when a professors isinstitutions when a professors is accused of plagiarism why they haveaccused of plagiarism why they haveaccused of plagiarism why they have these very careful processes withthese very careful processes withthese very careful processes with multiple stages and they take they canmultiple stages and they take they canmultiple stages and they take they can take a year or more because it dependstake a year or more because it dependstake a year or more because it depends on intenton intenton intent was this intentional in order to be awas this intentional in order to be awas this intentional in order to be a crime an academic crime you got to provecrime an academic crime you got to provecrime an academic crime you got to prove that they intentionally stole look inthat they intentionally stole look inthat they intentionally stole look in some cases it's obvious in some casessome cases it's obvious in some casessome cases it's obvious in some cases it's very subtle and they take thisit's very subtle and they take thisit's very subtle and they take this stuff super seriously but they basicallystuff super seriously but they basicallystuff super seriously but they basically accus ner of academic crime and then 92accus ner of academic crime and then 92accus ner of academic crime and then 92 minutes later they said she committed anminutes later they said she committed anminutes later they said she committed an academic crime and that should be aacademic crime and that should be aacademic crime and that should be a crime and that should be punishable withcrime and that should be punishable withcrime and that should be punishable with litigation and there there should be alitigation and there there should be alitigation and there there should be a real cost and we're going to make surereal cost and we're going to make surereal cost and we're going to make sure there's a real cost reputationally andthere's a real cost reputationally andthere's a real cost reputationally and otherwise to Business Insider and tootherwise to Business Insider and tootherwise to Business Insider and to Axel Springer because ultimately you gotAxel Springer because ultimately you gotAxel Springer because ultimately you got to look to the controlling owner youto look to the controlling owner you
to look to the controlling owner you know they'reknow they'reknow they're responsible I'll just say they you inresponsible I'll just say they you inresponsible I'll just say they you in this regard are inspiring tothis regard are inspiring tothis regard are inspiring to me uh for for for facingbasically uh an institution that wholebasically uh an institution that whole purpose is to to write articles sopurpose is to to write articles sopurpose is to to write articles so you're like going into the fire my kidsyou're like going into the fire my kidsyou're like going into the fire my kids school the uh epithet for the school orschool the uh epithet for the school orschool the uh epithet for the school or the saying is go forth unafraid I thinkthe saying is go forth unafraid I thinkthe saying is go forth unafraid I think it's a good way to live and again I'mit's a good way to live and again I'mit's a good way to live and again I'm words can't harm me you know the uh thewords can't harm me you know the uh thewords can't harm me you know the uh the power of X and and we do owe Elonpower of X and and we do owe Elonpower of X and and we do owe Elon enormous thanks for this is now so forenormous thanks for this is now so forenormous thanks for this is now so for example The Washington Post wrote aexample The Washington Post wrote aexample The Washington Post wrote a story about me a couple days ago and Istory about me a couple days ago and Istory about me a couple days ago and I didn't I didn't the story was a fairdidn't I didn't the story was a fairdidn't I didn't the story was a fair Story So within a few hours of the storyStory So within a few hours of the storyStory So within a few hours of the story being written I'm able to put out abeing written I'm able to put out abeing written I'm able to put out a response the story and send it to aresponse the story and send it to aresponse the story and send it to a milli2 200,000 people and it gets readmilli2 200,000 people and it gets readmilli2 200,000 people and it gets read and reread I haven't checked but youand reread I haven't checked but youand reread I haven't checked but you know probably five million people saw myknow probably five million people saw myknow probably five million people saw my response now those are the people on Xresponse now those are the people on Xresponse now those are the people on X it's not everyone in the world there's
it's not everyone in the world there'sit's not everyone in the world there's still there's a disconnection betweenstill there's a disconnection betweenstill there's a disconnection between the X world and the offline World um butthe X world and the offline World um butthe X world and the offline World um but you know reputation in my business isyou know reputation in my business isyou know reputation in my business is basically all you have uh and as theybasically all you have uh and as theybasically all you have uh and as they say you can can take a lifetime to buildsay you can can take a lifetime to buildsay you can can take a lifetime to build reputation and take five minutes to havereputation and take five minutes to havereputation and take five minutes to have it disappear and the media plays a veryit disappear and the media plays a veryit disappear and the media plays a very important roleimportant roleimportant role and they can destroy people at least weand they can destroy people at least weand they can destroy people at least we now have some ability to fight back wenow have some ability to fight back wenow have some ability to fight back we have a platform we can Surface our viewshave a platform we can Surface our viewshave a platform we can Surface our views you know the typical old days they writeyou know the typical old days they writeyou know the typical old days they write an incredibly damning article and youan incredibly damning article and youan incredibly damning article and you point out factual errors and then likepoint out factual errors and then likepoint out factual errors and then like two months later they bury a littletwo months later they bury a littletwo months later they bury a little correction on page Whatever by then thecorrection on page Whatever by then thecorrection on page Whatever by then the person was fired or or their life isperson was fired or or their life isperson was fired or or their life is destroyed or the reputation's damageddestroyed or the reputation's damageddestroyed or the reputation's damaged you know I was with Warren Buffettyou know I was with Warren Buffettyou know I was with Warren Buffett talking about media it's something he atalking about media it's something he atalking about media it's something he a business he really loves he says youbusiness he really loves he says youbusiness he really loves he says you know what Bill he said a thief with a
know what Bill he said a thief with aknow what Bill he said a thief with a dagger the only person who can cause youdagger the only person who can cause youdagger the only person who can cause you more harm than a thief with a dagger ismore harm than a thief with a dagger ismore harm than a thief with a dagger is a journalist with a pen and those werea journalist with a pen and those werea journalist with a pen and those were very powerful words so you thinkvery powerful words so you thinkvery powerful words so you think X formerly known as Twitter is a kind ofX formerly known as Twitter is a kind ofX formerly known as Twitter is a kind of neutralizing force to that to the powerneutralizing force to that to the powerneutralizing force to that to the power of centralized journalistic institutionsof centralized journalistic institutionsof centralized journalistic institutions 100% And I think it's a really important100% And I think it's a really important100% And I think it's a really important one and it's really been eye opening forone and it's really been eye opening forone and it's really been eye opening for me uh to see how stories get covered inme uh to see how stories get covered inme uh to see how stories get covered in mainstream media and then you actuallymainstream media and then you actuallymainstream media and then you actually what I do on X is I follow people onwhat I do on X is I follow people onwhat I do on X is I follow people on multiple sides ofmultiple sides ofmultiple sides of issue and you can or I post on a topicissue and you can or I post on a topicissue and you can or I post on a topic and I get to hear the other side youand I get to hear the other side youand I get to hear the other side you know I read the replies uh and it youknow I read the replies uh and it youknow I read the replies uh and it you know the truth is something that peopleknow the truth is something that peopleknow the truth is something that people have had a lot of question abouthave had a lot of question abouthave had a lot of question about particularly in the last uh I would sayparticularly in the last uh I would sayparticularly in the last uh I would say five years you know beginning with uhfive years you know beginning with uhfive years you know beginning with uh you know Trump's uh talking about fakeyou know Trump's uh talking about fakeyou know Trump's uh talking about fake news and a lot of what Trump said about
news and a lot of what Trump said aboutnews and a lot of what Trump said about fake news is true you know the world afake news is true you know the world afake news is true you know the world a big part of the world hated Trump andbig part of the world hated Trump andbig part of the world hated Trump and did everything they could to uhdid everything they could to uhdid everything they could to uh discredit them destroy him uh and youdiscredit them destroy him uh and youdiscredit them destroy him uh and you know he did a lot of things perhapsknow he did a lot of things perhapsknow he did a lot of things perhaps deserving of being being discrediteddeserving of being being discrediteddeserving of being being discredited he's by by a very imperfect and somehe's by by a very imperfect and somehe's by by a very imperfect and some cases harmful uh leader uh but you knowcases harmful uh leader uh but you knowcases harmful uh leader uh but you know everything from pre-election you knoweverything from pre-election you knoweverything from pre-election you know the the hunter at Biden laptop story inthe the hunter at Biden laptop story inthe the hunter at Biden laptop story in the New York Post that uh you know thenthe New York Post that uh you know thenthe New York Post that uh you know then Twitter uh you know uh made difficultTwitter uh you know uh made difficultTwitter uh you know uh made difficult for people to uh to share and to readfor people to uh to share and to readfor people to uh to share and to read um you know uh Co you know the the the Jum you know uh Co you know the the the Jum you know uh Co you know the the the J badar of the world questioning thebadar of the world questioning thebadar of the world questioning the government's response questioning yougovernment's response questioning yougovernment's response questioning you know uh the you know long-term lockdownsknow uh the you know long-term lockdownsknow uh the you know long-term lockdowns questioning keeping kids out of schoolquestioning keeping kids out of schoolquestioning keeping kids out of school questions about masks aboutquestions about masks aboutquestions about masks about vaccines which are still notvaccines which are still notvaccines which are still not definitively answered um nodefinitively answered um nodefinitively answered um no counterbalance to the power of thecounterbalance to the power of the
counterbalance to the power of the government when the government can shutgovernment when the government can shutgovernment when the government can shut down avenues for free speechdown avenues for free speechdown avenues for free speech uh and where the mainstream media hasuh and where the mainstream media hasuh and where the mainstream media has kind of towed the line and many extentskind of towed the line and many extentskind of towed the line and many extents to the government's uh action so havingto the government's uh action so havingto the government's uh action so having a independently owned powerful platforma independently owned powerful platforma independently owned powerful platform is very important uh for Truth uh foris very important uh for Truth uh foris very important uh for Truth uh for free speech for hearing the other sidefree speech for hearing the other sidefree speech for hearing the other side of the story for counterbalancing theof the story for counterbalancing theof the story for counterbalancing the power of the government Elon is gettingpower of the government Elon is gettingpower of the government Elon is getting you know uh a lot of uh push back uh youyou know uh a lot of uh push back uh youyou know uh a lot of uh push back uh you know the spacex's and Teslas of theknow the spacex's and Teslas of theknow the spacex's and Teslas of the world areworld areworld are experiencing a lot of government uh youexperiencing a lot of government uh youexperiencing a lot of government uh you questions and investigations and youquestions and investigations and youquestions and investigations and you know even the president of United Statesknow even the president of United Statesknow even the president of United States came out and said look he's worth hecame out and said look he's worth hecame out and said look he's worth he needs to beneeds to beneeds to be investigated you know I'm getting my owninvestigated you know I'm getting my owninvestigated you know I'm getting my own version of that in terms of uh someversion of that in terms of uh someversion of that in terms of uh some negative media articles I don't knownegative media articles I don't knownegative media articles I don't know what's next um but yeah if you stickwhat's next um but yeah if you stickwhat's next um but yeah if you stick your neck out in today's world and youyour neck out in today's world and you
your neck out in today's world and you you go against the establishment or atyou go against the establishment or atyou go against the establishment or at least the existing uh Administration uhleast the existing uh Administration uhleast the existing uh Administration uh you can find yourself uh in a veryyou can find yourself uh in a veryyou can find yourself uh in a very challenged place and that discourageschallenged place and that discourageschallenged place and that discourages people from sharing stuff and that's whypeople from sharing stuff and that's whypeople from sharing stuff and that's why Anonymous speech is important some ofAnonymous speech is important some ofAnonymous speech is important some of what you find on Twitter you mentionedwhat you find on Twitter you mentionedwhat you find on Twitter you mentioned Trump I have to talk to you aboutTrump I have to talk to you aboutTrump I have to talk to you about politics sure amongst all the otherpolitics sure amongst all the otherpolitics sure amongst all the other battles you've also been a part of thatbattles you've also been a part of thatbattles you've also been a part of that one maybe you can correct me on this butone maybe you can correct me on this butone maybe you can correct me on this but you've been a big supporter of variousyou've been a big supporter of variousyou've been a big supporter of various Democratic candidates over theyears uh but you did say a lot of niceyears uh but you did say a lot of nice things about Donald Trump uh in 2016 Ithings about Donald Trump uh in 2016 Ithings about Donald Trump uh in 2016 I believe so I was interviewed by Andrewbelieve so I was interviewed by Andrewbelieve so I was interviewed by Andrew sorin a week after Trump won thesorin a week after Trump won thesorin a week after Trump won the election yes and I made my case for whyelection yes and I made my case for whyelection yes and I made my case for why I thought he could be a good presidentI thought he could be a good presidentI thought he could be a good president yes so what was the case back then andyes so what was the case back then andyes so what was the case back then and to which degree did that turn out to beto which degree did that turn out to beto which degree did that turn out to be true and to which degree did it not totrue and to which degree did it not totrue and to which degree did it not to which degree was he a good president to
which degree was he a good president towhich degree was he a good president to which degree was he not good presidentwhich degree was he not good presidentwhich degree was he not good president look I think what I said at the time waslook I think what I said at the time waslook I think what I said at the time was the United States is actually a hugethe United States is actually a hugethe United States is actually a huge business and it reminds me a bit of thebusiness and it reminds me a bit of thebusiness and it reminds me a bit of the type of activist Investments we've takentype of activist Investments we've takentype of activist Investments we've taken on over time where this really reallyon over time where this really reallyon over time where this really really great business has kind of lost its waygreat business has kind of lost its waygreat business has kind of lost its way and with the right leadership we can fixand with the right leadership we can fixand with the right leadership we can fix ititit and if you think about the business ofand if you think about the business ofand if you think about the business of the United States today right you've gotthe United States today right you've gotthe United States today right you've got $32 trillion wor the debt so it's$32 trillion wor the debt so it's$32 trillion wor the debt so it's overleveraged and or it's highlyoverleveraged and or it's highlyoverleveraged and or it's highly leveraged and The Leverage is onlyleveraged and The Leverage is onlyleveraged and The Leverage is only increasing we're losing money I.Eincreasing we're losing money I.Eincreasing we're losing money I.E revenues aren't covering expenses uh therevenues aren't covering expenses uh therevenues aren't covering expenses uh the cost of our debt is going up as interestcost of our debt is going up as interestcost of our debt is going up as interest rates have gone up and the debt has torates have gone up and the debt has torates have gone up and the debt has to be rolled over we have enormousbe rolled over we have enormousbe rolled over we have enormous administrative bloat uh in the uh theadministrative bloat uh in the uh theadministrative bloat uh in the uh the country uh the the regulatory regime iscountry uh the the regulatory regime iscountry uh the the regulatory regime is incredibly complicated burdensome andincredibly complicated burdensome and
incredibly complicated burdensome and impedingimpedingimpeding growth um our relations with uh ourgrowth um our relations with uh ourgrowth um our relations with uh our competitor Nations and our friendlycompetitor Nations and our friendlycompetitor Nations and our friendly nations are are are far from ideal andnations are are are far from ideal andnations are are are far from ideal and those conditions were present in 2020 asthose conditions were present in 2020 asthose conditions were present in 2020 as well they're just I would say worse nowwell they're just I would say worse nowwell they're just I would say worse now and I said look it's a great thing thatand I said look it's a great thing thatand I said look it's a great thing that we have a businessman as president andwe have a businessman as president andwe have a businessman as president and in my lifetime I was really the firstin my lifetime I was really the firstin my lifetime I was really the first businessman as opposed to I mean maybebusinessman as opposed to I mean maybebusinessman as opposed to I mean maybe Bush to some degree was a businessBush to some degree was a businessBush to some degree was a business person uh but I thought okay I alwaysperson uh but I thought okay I alwaysperson uh but I thought okay I always wanted the CEO to be CEO of America andwanted the CEO to be CEO of America andwanted the CEO to be CEO of America and now we have trump it look he's got somenow we have trump it look he's got somenow we have trump it look he's got some personal qualities that seem less idealpersonal qualities that seem less idealpersonal qualities that seem less ideal but he's going to be president thebut he's going to be president thebut he's going to be president the United States he's going to rise to theUnited States he's going to rise to theUnited States he's going to rise to the occasion this is going to be his legacyoccasion this is going to be his legacyoccasion this is going to be his legacy and uh he knows how to make deals andand uh he knows how to make deals andand uh he knows how to make deals and he's got uh he's going to recruit somehe's got uh he's going to recruit somehe's got uh he's going to recruit some great people into his administration Igreat people into his administration Igreat people into his administration I hoped uh and you know growth can solve ahoped uh and you know growth can solve a
hoped uh and you know growth can solve a lot of our problems so if we can get ridlot of our problems so if we can get ridlot of our problems so if we can get rid of a bunch of regulations that areof a bunch of regulations that areof a bunch of regulations that are holding back the country we can have aholding back the country we can have aholding back the country we can have a president Obamapresident Obamapresident Obama uh was a I would say not a pro businessuh was a I would say not a pro businessuh was a I would say not a pro business president he did not love the businesspresident he did not love the businesspresident he did not love the business Community he did not love successfulCommunity he did not love successfulCommunity he did not love successful people um and having a president whopeople um and having a president whopeople um and having a president who just changed the tone on on um being ajust changed the tone on on um being ajust changed the tone on on um being a pro business president I thought wouldpro business president I thought wouldpro business president I thought would be good for the country and that'sbe good for the country and that'sbe good for the country and that's basically what I said and I would saybasically what I said and I would saybasically what I said and I would say Trump did a lot of good things uh and aTrump did a lot of good things uh and aTrump did a lot of good things uh and a lot of people you can get criticized forlot of people you can get criticized forlot of people you can get criticized for acknowledging that um but you know Iacknowledging that um but you know Iacknowledging that um but you know I think the the country's economythink the the country's economythink the the country's economy accelerated dramaticallyaccelerated dramaticallyaccelerated dramatically and that by the way you know the theand that by the way you know the theand that by the way you know the the capitalist system helps the people atcapitalist system helps the people atcapitalist system helps the people at the bottom best when the system doesthe bottom best when the system doesthe bottom best when the system does well and when the economy does well youwell and when the economy does well youwell and when the economy does well you know the black unemployment rate was theknow the black unemployment rate was theknow the black unemployment rate was the lowest in history when Trump was
lowest in history when Trump waslowest in history when Trump was president and that's true for otherpresident and that's true for otherpresident and that's true for other minority groups uh so he was good forminority groups uh so he was good forminority groups uh so he was good for thethe economy um and he you know uh heeconomy um and he you know uh heeconomy um and he you know uh he recognized uh some of the challenges andrecognized uh some of the challenges andrecognized uh some of the challenges and issues and threats of Chinaissues and threats of Chinaissues and threats of China early uh he kind of woke up NATO uh nowearly uh he kind of woke up NATO uh nowearly uh he kind of woke up NATO uh now again the way he did all this stuff youagain the way he did all this stuff youagain the way he did all this stuff you can object to um but you know NATOcan object to um but you know NATOcan object to um but you know NATO actually started spending more money onactually started spending more money onactually started spending more money on defense in uh the early part of Trump'sdefense in uh the early part of Trump'sdefense in uh the early part of Trump's presidency because of his threats whichpresidency because of his threats whichpresidency because of his threats which turned out to be a good thing in lightturned out to be a good thing in lightturned out to be a good thing in light of uh you know the ultimately the Russiaof uh you know the ultimately the Russiaof uh you know the ultimately the Russia Ukraine uh War uh and I think if youUkraine uh War uh and I think if youUkraine uh War uh and I think if you analyze Trump objectively based onanalyze Trump objectively based onanalyze Trump objectively based on policies he did a lot of good for thepolicies he did a lot of good for thepolicies he did a lot of good for the country um I think what's bad is uh hecountry um I think what's bad is uh hecountry um I think what's bad is uh he did some harm as well uh you know the uhdid some harm as well uh you know the uhdid some harm as well uh you know the uh I do think civilI do think civilI do think civil disappeared in America with Trump asdisappeared in America with Trump asdisappeared in America with Trump as president a lot of that's his personalpresident a lot of that's his personalpresident a lot of that's his personal style and how important is civility I dostyle and how important is civility I do
style and how important is civility I do think it's I do think you know he wasthink it's I do think you know he wasthink it's I do think you know he was attacked uh very aggressively by theattacked uh very aggressively by theattacked uh very aggressively by the left by the media uh that made himleft by the media uh that made himleft by the media uh that made him paranoid it probably interfered with hisparanoid it probably interfered with hisparanoid it probably interfered with his ability to be successful he had you knowability to be successful he had you knowability to be successful he had you know the Russian collusion investigationthe Russian collusion investigationthe Russian collusion investigation overhang uh and when someone's attackedoverhang uh and when someone's attackedoverhang uh and when someone's attacked they're not going to be at their bestthey're not going to be at their bestthey're not going to be at their best particularly if they're paranoid I thinkparticularly if they're paranoid I thinkparticularly if they're paranoid I think there's some degree of that um but youthere's some degree of that um but youthere's some degree of that um but you know I'm giving kind of the the best ofknow I'm giving kind of the the best ofknow I'm giving kind of the the best of Defense of trump you know just uh youDefense of trump you know just uh youDefense of trump you know just uh you look at how he managed his team rightlook at how he managed his team rightlook at how he managed his team right very few people made it through thevery few people made it through thevery few people made it through the Trump Administration without gettingTrump Administration without gettingTrump Administration without getting fired or quitting uh and you who wouldfired or quitting uh and you who wouldfired or quitting uh and you who would say they're the greatest person in thesay they're the greatest person in thesay they're the greatest person in the world when he hired them and they'reworld when he hired them and they'reworld when he hired them and they're total disaster when he fired them uhtotal disaster when he fired them uhtotal disaster when he fired them uh it's not an inspiring way to be a leaderit's not an inspiring way to be a leaderit's not an inspiring way to be a leader and to attract really talented people Iand to attract really talented people Iand to attract really talented people I think the events surrounding the
think the events surrounding thethink the events surrounding the electionelectionelection uh you know I think January 6 he coulduh you know I think January 6 he coulduh you know I think January 6 he could have done a lot more to stop uh a riot Ihave done a lot more to stop uh a riot Ihave done a lot more to stop uh a riot I I don't consider it an Insurrection umI don't consider it an Insurrection umI don't consider it an Insurrection um but a riot that takes place in ourbut a riot that takes place in ourbut a riot that takes place in our capital and where police officers arecapital and where police officers arecapital and where police officers are killed or die commit suicide uh becausekilled or die commit suicide uh becausekilled or die commit suicide uh because for failure as they s to do their jobfor failure as they s to do their jobfor failure as they s to do their job you know he stepped in way too late toyou know he stepped in way too late toyou know he stepped in way too late to stop that he could have stopped it earlystop that he could have stopped it earlystop that he could have stopped it early you know many of his words I thinkyou know many of his words I thinkyou know many of his words I think inspired people you know some of whominspired people you know some of whominspired people you know some of whom with Mal intent to go in there and causewith Mal intent to go in there and causewith Mal intent to go in there and cause harm and literally to shut down theharm and literally to shut down theharm and literally to shut down the government there were some evil peoplegovernment there were some evil peoplegovernment there were some evil people unfortunately there so he's been a veryunfortunately there so he's been a veryunfortunately there so he's been a very imperfect president and also I think inimperfect president and also I think inimperfect president and also I think in and contributed to the uh you knowand contributed to the uh you knowand contributed to the uh you know extreme amount of divisiveness in ourextreme amount of divisiveness in ourextreme amount of divisiveness in our country so I was ultimately disappointedcountry so I was ultimately disappointedcountry so I was ultimately disappointed um by you know the note of optimism andum by you know the note of optimism andum by you know the note of optimism and again Iagain Iagain I always uh you know support the president
always uh you know support the presidentalways uh you know support the president I trust the people ultimately to selectI trust the people ultimately to selectI trust the people ultimately to select our next leader you know it's a bit likeour next leader you know it's a bit likeour next leader you know it's a bit like um Who Wants To Be A Millionaire youum Who Wants To Be A Millionaire youum Who Wants To Be A Millionaire you know when you go to the crowd and theknow when you go to the crowd and theknow when you go to the crowd and the crowd says a certain thing you got tocrowd says a certain thing you got tocrowd says a certain thing you got to trust the crowd um but uh usually andtrust the crowd um but uh usually andtrust the crowd um but uh usually and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire it's aWho Wants To Be A Millionaire it's aWho Wants To Be A Millionaire it's a landslide in One Direction so you knowlandslide in One Direction so you knowlandslide in One Direction so you know which which led her to pick here we hadwhich which led her to pick here we hadwhich which led her to pick here we had an incredibly close election whichan incredibly close election whichan incredibly close election which itself is a problem so you know my dreamitself is a problem so you know my dreamitself is a problem so you know my dream and what I you know tried a little bitand what I you know tried a little bitand what I you know tried a little bit played politics in the last littleplayed politics in the last littleplayed politics in the last little period to support some alternatives toperiod to support some alternatives toperiod to support some alternatives to Trump so that we have a president youTrump so that we have a president youTrump so that we have a president you know I I use the you know exampleknow I I use the you know exampleknow I I use the you know example imagine you woke up in the morning it'simagine you woke up in the morning it'simagine you woke up in the morning it's election day whatever it is thiselection day whatever it is thiselection day whatever it is this November 4th whatever 20 24 and youNovember 4th whatever 20 24 and youNovember 4th whatever 20 24 and you still haven't figured out who to votestill haven't figured out who to votestill haven't figured out who to vote for cuz the candidates are so appealingfor cuz the candidates are so appealingfor cuz the candidates are so appealing that uh you don't know which lever to
that uh you don't know which lever tothat uh you don't know which lever to pull because it's a tough call that'spull because it's a tough call that'spull because it's a tough call that's the choice we should be making Asthe choice we should be making Asthe choice we should be making As Americans it shouldn't be I'm a memberAmericans it shouldn't be I'm a memberAmericans it shouldn't be I'm a member of this party I'm only going to voteof this party I'm only going to voteof this party I'm only going to vote this way I'm a member of that partythis way I'm a member of that partythis way I'm a member of that party going to vote the other way and I hategoing to vote the other way and I hategoing to vote the other way and I hate the other side and that's where we'vethe other side and that's where we'vethe other side and that's where we've been unfortunately for too long or youbeen unfortunately for too long or youbeen unfortunately for too long or you might be torn because both candidatesmight be torn because both candidatesmight be torn because both candidates are not good yeah so you want to I Iare not good yeah so you want to I Iare not good yeah so you want to I I love a future where I'm torn because thelove a future where I'm torn because thelove a future where I'm torn because the choices are so amazing the problem ischoices are so amazing the problem ischoices are so amazing the problem is the party system is so screwed up andthe party system is so screwed up andthe party system is so screwed up and the parties are self-interested andthe parties are self-interested andthe parties are self-interested and they're they're there another governancethey're they're there another governancethey're they're there another governance problem right an incentive problem uhproblem right an incentive problem uhproblem right an incentive problem uh Michael Porter who was one of myMichael Porter who was one of myMichael Porter who was one of my professors at har business school wroteprofessors at har business school wroteprofessors at har business school wrote a brilliant piece on the Americana brilliant piece on the Americana brilliant piece on the American political system and all the incentivespolitical system and all the incentivespolitical system and all the incentives and market dynamics and what you calland market dynamics and what you calland market dynamics and what you call the competitive analysis uh and it's a
the competitive analysis uh and it's athe competitive analysis uh and it's a mustre I should dig it up and you knowmustre I should dig it up and you knowmustre I should dig it up and you know send it around on X uh but it explainssend it around on X uh but it explainssend it around on X uh but it explains how the you know the parties and thehow the you know the parties and thehow the you know the parties and the incentives of these sort ofincentives of these sort ofincentives of these sort of self-sustaining entities that you knowself-sustaining entities that you knowself-sustaining entities that you know were the people involved are notwere the people involved are notwere the people involved are not incentivized to do what's best for theincentivized to do what's best for theincentivized to do what's best for the country it's a problem you've been uh acountry it's a problem you've been uh acountry it's a problem you've been uh a supporter of Deansupporter of Deansupporter of Dean Phillips yes for the 2024 USPhillips yes for the 2024 USPhillips yes for the 2024 US presidential race yes what do you likepresidential race yes what do you likepresidential race yes what do you like aboutabout Dean I think he's a honest smartDean I think he's a honest smartDean I think he's a honest smart motivated capable proen guy as amotivated capable proen guy as amotivated capable proen guy as a business leader and I think in uh sixbusiness leader and I think in uh sixbusiness leader and I think in uh six almost you know with in his three termsalmost you know with in his three termsalmost you know with in his three terms in Congress he ran when Trump wasin Congress he ran when Trump wasin Congress he ran when Trump was elected he said his you know kids criedelected he said his you know kids criedelected he said his you know kids cried his daughters cried inspired him to runhis daughters cried inspired him to runhis daughters cried inspired him to run for office uh ran in a republicanfor office uh ran in a republicanfor office uh ran in a republican District in Minnesota for the last 60District in Minnesota for the last 60District in Minnesota for the last 60 years uh was elected in the landslideyears uh was elected in the landslideyears uh was elected in the landslide has been reelected twice moved up thehas been reelected twice moved up thehas been reelected twice moved up the ranks in the
ranks in theranks in the Congress um you know uh respected by hisCongress um you know uh respected by hisCongress um you know uh respected by his fellow members of Congress Advance somefellow members of Congress Advance somefellow members of Congress Advance some important Legislation during covid uh onimportant Legislation during covid uh onimportant Legislation during covid uh on you know senior roles on various foreignyou know senior roles on various foreignyou know senior roles on various foreign policiespoliciespolicies committeescommitteescommittees Centrist you know considered I think theCentrist you know considered I think theCentrist you know considered I think the second most bipartisan member of thesecond most bipartisan member of thesecond most bipartisan member of the Congress I'd love to have a bipartisanCongress I'd love to have a bipartisanCongress I'd love to have a bipartisan president that's the only way to getpresident that's the only way to getpresident that's the only way to get kind of go forward but we'd enormouslykind of go forward but we'd enormouslykind of go forward but we'd enormously benefit if we had a presidentbenefit if we had a presidentbenefit if we had a president that chose policies on the basis ofthat chose policies on the basis ofthat chose policies on the basis of what's best for the country as opposedwhat's best for the country as opposedwhat's best for the country as opposed to what his party wanted what I liketo what his party wanted what I liketo what his party wanted what I like about him is he's financiallyabout him is he's financiallyabout him is he's financially independent he's not a billionaire butindependent he's not a billionaire butindependent he's not a billionaire but he doesn't need the job the party hateshe doesn't need the job the party hateshe doesn't need the job the party hates him now because he challenged the kinghim now because he challenged the kinghim now because he challenged the king right and so uh but he's willing to giveright and so uh but he's willing to giveright and so uh but he's willing to give up his political career because what heup his political career because what heup his political career because what he thought was best for the country hethought was best for the country hethought was best for the country he tried to get other people to run whotried to get other people to run who
tried to get other people to run who were higher profile had more namewere higher profile had more namewere higher profile had more name recognition none would no one wants torecognition none would no one wants torecognition none would no one wants to challenge Biden you know if they want tochallenge Biden you know if they want tochallenge Biden you know if they want to be have a chance to stay in office orbe have a chance to stay in office orbe have a chance to stay in office or run in the future uh but he's veryrun in the future uh but he's veryrun in the future uh but he's very principled uh I think he would be aprincipled uh I think he would be aprincipled uh I think he would be a great president um but he needs uh hisgreat president um but he needs uh hisgreat president um but he needs uh his shot is Michigan but he needs to raiseshot is Michigan but he needs to raiseshot is Michigan but he needs to raise money in order to he's only got a couplemoney in order to he's only got a couplemoney in order to he's only got a couple weeks and he's got to be on TV thereweeks and he's got to be on TV thereweeks and he's got to be on TV there that's expensive uh so uh we'll see sothat's expensive uh so uh we'll see sothat's expensive uh so uh we'll see so he has to increase name recognition allhe has to increase name recognition allhe has to increase name recognition all that kind of stuff also as you mentionedthat kind of stuff also as you mentionedthat kind of stuff also as you mentioned he's young yeah he's 55 but he's a younghe's young yeah he's 55 but he's a younghe's young yeah he's 55 but he's a young 55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I guess 55 no matter what is a prettyguess 55 no matter what is a prettyguess 55 no matter what is a pretty young age 57 I feel young I can do moreyoung age 57 I feel young I can do moreyoung age 57 I feel young I can do more pull-ups today than I could as a kid sopull-ups today than I could as a kid sopull-ups today than I could as a kid so that's a standard you're at the top ofthat's a standard you're at the top ofthat's a standard you're at the top of your tennis game the top of my tennisyour tennis game the top of my tennisyour tennis game the top of my tennis game for sure maybe there's someone thatgame for sure maybe there's someone thatgame for sure maybe there's someone that would disagree with that and by the way
would disagree with that and by the waywould disagree with that and by the way the other thing to point out here is andthe other thing to point out here is andthe other thing to point out here is and I have been pointing this out as ofI have been pointing this out as ofI have been pointing this out as of others Biden is I think is done I meanothers Biden is I think is done I meanothers Biden is I think is done I mean it's embarrassing it's embarrassing forit's embarrassing it's embarrassing forit's embarrassing it's embarrassing for the country having him as a as athe country having him as a as athe country having him as a as a presidential candidate let alone thepresidential candidate let alone thepresidential candidate let alone the president of the country it's crazy andpresident of the country it's crazy andpresident of the country it's crazy and it's just going to get worse and worseit's just going to get worse and worseit's just going to get worse and worse and he should you know the worst of hisand he should you know the worst of hisand he should you know the worst of his legacy is his ego that prevents him fromlegacy is his ego that prevents him fromlegacy is his ego that prevents him from stepping aside and that's it it's hisstepping aside and that's it it's hisstepping aside and that's it it's his ego and it is so wrong and so bad and soego and it is so wrong and so bad and soego and it is so wrong and so bad and so embarrassing uh you know you talk toembarrassing uh you know you talk toembarrassing uh you know you talk to people I was in Europe I was in Londonpeople I was in Europe I was in Londonpeople I was in Europe I was in London few days ago and people were like Billfew days ago and people were like Billfew days ago and people were like Bill how can this guy be your president andhow can this guy be your president andhow can this guy be your president and and it's a bit like again I go back toand it's a bit like again I go back toand it's a bit like again I go back to my business analogy being a CEO is likemy business analogy being a CEO is likemy business analogy being a CEO is like a full contact sport being presidenta full contact sport being presidenta full contact sport being president United States is like some combinationUnited States is like some combinationUnited States is like some combination of wrestling Marathon running you knowof wrestling Marathon running you know
of wrestling Marathon running you know try being a triathlete I mean you got totry being a triathlete I mean you got totry being a triathlete I mean you got to be at the serious physical shape and atbe at the serious physical shape and atbe at the serious physical shape and at the top of your game to represent thisthe top of your game to represent thisthe top of your game to represent this country and he is a far cry from thatcountry and he is a far cry from thatcountry and he is a far cry from that and it's just getting worse and it'sand it's just getting worse and it'sand it's just getting worse and it's embarrassing and I and he's got heembarrassing and I and he's got heembarrassing and I and he's got he cannot be and by the way every day hecannot be and by the way every day hecannot be and by the way every day he waits he's handing the election uh towaits he's handing the election uh towaits he's handing the election uh to Trump because it's harder and harder forTrump because it's harder and harder forTrump because it's harder and harder for an alternative candidate to surface nowan alternative candidate to surface nowan alternative candidate to surface now Dean is the only candidate left on theDean is the only candidate left on theDean is the only candidate left on the Democratic side that can still winDemocratic side that can still winDemocratic side that can still win delegates he's on the ballot in 42delegates he's on the ballot in 42delegates he's on the ballot in 42 States uh and the best way for Biden toStates uh and the best way for Biden toStates uh and the best way for Biden to step aside is for Dean to show well instep aside is for Dean to show well instep aside is for Dean to show well in Michigan and so you think there is aMichigan and so you think there is aMichigan and so you think there is a path with the delegates and all thatpath with the delegates and all thatpath with the delegates and all that kind of stuff 100% so if he if what haskind of stuff 100% so if he if what haskind of stuff 100% so if he if what has to happen is what New Hampshire he wentto happen is what New Hampshire he wentto happen is what New Hampshire he went from zero uh to 20% of the vote and andfrom zero uh to 20% of the vote and andfrom zero uh to 20% of the vote and and 10 weeks with no name recognition you10 weeks with no name recognition you10 weeks with no name recognition you know I helped a little bit Elon helped
know I helped a little bit Elon helpedknow I helped a little bit Elon helped we did a spaces for him we had 350,000we did a spaces for him we had 350,000we did a spaces for him we had 350,000 people on the spaces some originallypeople on the spaces some originallypeople on the spaces some originally 40,000 live or something and then the40,000 live or something and then the40,000 live or something and then the the rest after um and then he was on thethe rest after um and then he was on thethe rest after um and then he was on the ground in New Hampshire and Newground in New Hampshire and Newground in New Hampshire and New Hampshire is one of the states where youHampshire is one of the states where youHampshire is one of the states where you don't need to be registered to to adon't need to be registered to to adon't need to be registered to to a party to vote for that candidate so it'sparty to vote for that candidate so it'sparty to vote for that candidate so it's like jump ball and he got 20% and that'slike jump ball and he got 20% and that'slike jump ball and he got 20% and that's with a lot of Independence and Democratswith a lot of Independence and Democratswith a lot of Independence and Democrats voting forvoting forvoting for Haley um Haley who I like and who I'veHaley um Haley who I like and who I'veHaley um Haley who I like and who I've supported um does not look like she'ssupported um does not look like she'ssupported um does not look like she's going to make it uh you know Trump isgoing to make it uh you know Trump isgoing to make it uh you know Trump is really kind of running the table and soreally kind of running the table and soreally kind of running the table and so vote for Haley as an independent invote for Haley as an independent invote for Haley as an independent in Michigan maybe throw away your vote IMichigan maybe throw away your vote IMichigan maybe throw away your vote I think it increases the likelihood thatthink it increases the likelihood thatthink it increases the likelihood that Dean can get those independent votes ifDean can get those independent votes ifDean can get those independent votes if he he could theoretically again he needshe he could theoretically again he needshe he could theoretically again he needs he needs money he could beat Biden inhe needs money he could beat Biden inhe needs money he could beat Biden in Michigan Biden's doing very poorly in
Michigan Biden's doing very poorly inMichigan Biden's doing very poorly in Michigan his polls are terrible theMichigan his polls are terrible theMichigan his polls are terrible the Muslim Community is not happy with himMuslim Community is not happy with himMuslim Community is not happy with him uhuh and uh he really spent no time there andand uh he really spent no time there andand uh he really spent no time there and so if he's embarrassed in Michigan itso if he's embarrassed in Michigan itso if he's embarrassed in Michigan it could be a catalyst for him withdrawingcould be a catalyst for him withdrawingcould be a catalyst for him withdrawing then Dean will get funding if he winsthen Dean will get funding if he winsthen Dean will get funding if he wins Michigan or shows well in Michigan andMichigan or shows well in Michigan andMichigan or shows well in Michigan and people say he's viable he's the onlypeople say he's viable he's the onlypeople say he's viable he's the only choice we have he'll attract from thechoice we have he'll attract from thechoice we have he'll attract from the center he'll attract from peoplecenter he'll attract from peoplecenter he'll attract from people Republicans who who won't vote for TrumpRepublicans who who won't vote for TrumpRepublicans who who won't vote for Trump in which they're a big percentage couldin which they're a big percentage couldin which they're a big percentage could be 60% or more it could be 70% won'tbe 60% or more it could be 70% won'tbe 60% or more it could be 70% won't vote for Trump and also from uh thevote for Trump and also from uh thevote for Trump and also from uh the Democrats so I think he's a reallyDemocrats so I think he's a reallyDemocrats so I think he's a really interesting candidate uh but we got tointeresting candidate uh but we got tointeresting candidate uh but we got to get the word out yeah I got a chance toget the word out yeah I got a chance toget the word out yeah I got a chance to chat with Dean I really like him Ichat with Dean I really like him Ichat with Dean I really like him I really like him and I think uh the nextreally like him and I think uh the nextreally like him and I think uh the next president of the United States is goingpresident of the United States is goingpresident of the United States is going to haveto haveto have to meet and speak regularly with zansito meet and speak regularly with zansi
to meet and speak regularly with zansi Putin Netanyahu with world leaders andPutin Netanyahu with world leaders andPutin Netanyahu with world leaders and have some of the most historichave some of the most historichave some of the most historic conversations agreementsconversations agreementsconversations agreements negotiations and I just don't see Bidennegotiations and I just don't see Bidennegotiations and I just don't see Biden doing that no um and notdoing that no um and notdoing that no um and not for uh any reason but sadly age I meanfor uh any reason but sadly age I meanfor uh any reason but sadly age I mean think about it this way when Biden's inthink about it this way when Biden's inthink about it this way when Biden's in present now you saw his recent impromptupresent now you saw his recent impromptupresent now you saw his recent impromptu press conference which he did after thepress conference which he did after thepress conference which he did after the uh special prosecutor you know reportuh special prosecutor you know reportuh special prosecutor you know report basically saying the guy was way pastbasically saying the guy was way pastbasically saying the guy was way past his Prime and then he confused thehis Prime and then he confused thehis Prime and then he confused the president of Mexico and the president ofpresident of Mexico and the president ofpresident of Mexico and the president of EgyptEgyptEgypt so they're very careful when they rollso they're very careful when they rollso they're very careful when they roll him out and he's scripted and he'shim out and he's scripted and he'shim out and he's scripted and he's always reading from elector imagine thealways reading from elector imagine thealways reading from elector imagine the care they have in exposing him and itcare they have in exposing him and itcare they have in exposing him and it when they expose him it's terrible okaywhen they expose him it's terrible okaywhen they expose him it's terrible okay imagine how bad it is for real um soimagine how bad it is for real um soimagine how bad it is for real um so it's not good no bad really bad forit's not good no bad really bad forit's not good no bad really bad for America and I'm upset with him and upsetAmerica and I'm upset with him and upsetAmerica and I'm upset with him and upset with his family I'm upset with his wifewith his family I'm upset with his wife
with his family I'm upset with his wife you this is the time where the peopleyou this is the time where the peopleyou this is the time where the people closest to you have to put their armsclosest to you have to put their armsclosest to you have to put their arms around you and say you know Dad you knowaround you and say you know Dad you knowaround you and say you know Dad you know honey okay you've you know you've donehoney okay you've you know you've donehoney okay you've you know you've done your thing uh this is going to be youryour thing uh this is going to be youryour thing uh this is going to be your legacy and it's not going to be a goodlegacy and it's not going to be a goodlegacy and it's not going to be a good one great leaders should also know whenone great leaders should also know whenone great leaders should also know when to step down yeah one of the best teststo step down yeah one of the best teststo step down yeah one of the best tests of a leader is succession planning thisof a leader is succession planning thisof a leader is succession planning this is a massive failure of successionis a massive failure of successionis a massive failure of succession planning outside ofplanning outside ofplanning outside of politics let me look to thepolitics let me look to thepolitics let me look to the Future first in terms of the financialFuture first in terms of the financialFuture first in terms of the financial world what are you looking forward to inworld what are you looking forward to inworld what are you looking forward to in the next couple of years you have a newthe next couple of years you have a newthe next couple of years you have a new fund like what are you thinking about infund like what are you thinking about infund like what are you thinking about in terms ofterms ofterms of investment um your own and the entireinvestment um your own and the entireinvestment um your own and the entire economy and maybe even the the economyeconomy and maybe even the the economyeconomy and maybe even the the economy of the world sure so the SEC doesn'tof the world sure so the SEC doesn'tof the world sure so the SEC doesn't allow uh doesn't like us to talk aboutallow uh doesn't like us to talk aboutallow uh doesn't like us to talk about uh new funds that we're launching thatuh new funds that we're launching thatuh new funds that we're launching that we filed with the SEC sure um but I
we filed with the SEC sure um but Iwe filed with the SEC sure um but I would say I do uh and by the way ifwould say I do uh and by the way ifwould say I do uh and by the way if anyone's ever interested in a fund theyanyone's ever interested in a fund theyanyone's ever interested in a fund they should always read the prospectivesshould always read the prospectivesshould always read the prospectives carefully including the risk factorscarefully including the risk factorscarefully including the risk factors that's very very important but I likethat's very very important but I likethat's very very important but I like the idea of democratizing access to goodthe idea of democratizing access to goodthe idea of democratizing access to good investors uh and uh I think that's aninvestors uh and uh I think that's aninvestors uh and uh I think that's an interesting Trend so we want to be partinteresting Trend so we want to be partinteresting Trend so we want to be part of that Trend in termsof that Trend in termsof that Trend in terms of financial markets generally theof financial markets generally theof financial markets generally the economy you know a lot of is going toeconomy you know a lot of is going toeconomy you know a lot of is going to depend upon the next leader of thedepend upon the next leader of thedepend upon the next leader of the country so we're kind of right backcountry so we're kind of right backcountry so we're kind of right back there um you know the leadership thethere um you know the leadership thethere um you know the leadership the United States is important for the USUnited States is important for the USUnited States is important for the US economy it's important for the globaleconomy it's important for the globaleconomy it's important for the global economy it's important for Globaleconomy it's important for Globaleconomy it's important for Global Peace and we've gone through a reallyPeace and we've gone through a reallyPeace and we've gone through a really difficult uh period and it's time wedifficult uh period and it's time wedifficult uh period and it's time we need to break but you know look I thinkneed to break but you know look I thinkneed to break but you know look I think the United States is an incrediblythe United States is an incrediblythe United States is an incredibly resilient country we have someresilient country we have someresilient country we have some incredible Moes among them we have the
incredible Moes among them we have theincredible Moes among them we have the Atlantic and the Pacific and we have youAtlantic and the Pacific and we have youAtlantic and the Pacific and we have you know peaceful neighbors to the North andknow peaceful neighbors to the North andknow peaceful neighbors to the North and the South we're an enormously richthe South we're an enormously richthe South we're an enormously rich country uh capitalism still workscountry uh capitalism still workscountry uh capitalism still works effectively here uh I get optimisticeffectively here uh I get optimisticeffectively here uh I get optimistic about the world when I talk to myabout the world when I talk to myabout the world when I talk to my friends who are either Venturefriends who are either Venturefriends who are either Venture capitalists or uh my hobby of backingcapitalists or uh my hobby of backingcapitalists or uh my hobby of backing these young entrepreneurs I talk to athese young entrepreneurs I talk to athese young entrepreneurs I talk to a founder of a startup if you want to getfounder of a startup if you want to getfounder of a startup if you want to get optimist about the world so I thinkoptimist about the world so I thinkoptimist about the world so I think technology is going to save ustechnology is going to save ustechnology is going to save us uh I think AI of course has itsuh I think AI of course has itsuh I think AI of course has its frightening uh Terminator like scenariosfrightening uh Terminator like scenariosfrightening uh Terminator like scenarios but I'm going to take the the oppositebut I'm going to take the the oppositebut I'm going to take the the opposite view that this is going to be a hugeview that this is going to be a hugeview that this is going to be a huge enabler uh of uh productivity scientificenabler uh of uh productivity scientificenabler uh of uh productivity scientific discovery drug Discovery and it's goingdiscovery drug Discovery and it's goingdiscovery drug Discovery and it's going to make us healthier happier and andto make us healthier happier and andto make us healthier happier and and better so I do think you know the thebetter so I do think you know the thebetter so I do think you know the the internet Revolution was you know had ainternet Revolution was you know had ainternet Revolution was you know had a lot of good some obviously some bad I
lot of good some obviously some bad Ilot of good some obviously some bad I think the AI Revolution is going to bethink the AI Revolution is going to bethink the AI Revolution is going to be similar but we're at this other reallysimilar but we're at this other reallysimilar but we're at this other really interesting junctureinteresting junctureinteresting juncture uh in the world uh you know with uhuh in the world uh you know with uhuh in the world uh you know with uh technology and we're going to have totechnology and we're going to have totechnology and we're going to have to use it for our good uh on the mediause it for our good uh on the mediause it for our good uh on the media front I'm happy about X and I think uhfront I'm happy about X and I think uhfront I'm happy about X and I think uh elon's going to be successful here uh Ielon's going to be successful here uh Ielon's going to be successful here uh I think advertisers will realize it's athink advertisers will realize it's athink advertisers will realize it's a really good platform the best way toreally good platform the best way toreally good platform the best way to reach um me I want to sell something toreach um me I want to sell something toreach um me I want to sell something to me post I've actually bought stuff on uhme post I've actually bought stuff on uhme post I've actually bought stuff on uh some some ads in X I don't remember thesome some ads in X I don't remember thesome some ads in X I don't remember the last time I responded to direct responselast time I responded to direct responselast time I responded to direct response advertising you know in terms of uh myadvertising you know in terms of uh myadvertising you know in terms of uh my business I have an incredible team it'sbusiness I have an incredible team it'sbusiness I have an incredible team it's tiny we're one of the smallest firmstiny we're one of the smallest firmstiny we're one of the smallest firms relative to the assets we manage uh it'srelative to the assets we manage uh it'srelative to the assets we manage uh it's a bit like uh you know the uh the Navya bit like uh you know the uh the Navya bit like uh you know the uh the Navy Seals you know not the US Army we weSeals you know not the US Army we weSeals you know not the US Army we we have only 40 people at persing Square sohave only 40 people at persing Square sohave only 40 people at persing Square so it's a a tight team I think we'll do
it's a a tight team I think we'll doit's a a tight team I think we'll do great things I think we're early on yougreat things I think we're early on yougreat things I think we're early on you know my ambitions investment wise I'veknow my ambitions investment wise I'veknow my ambitions investment wise I've always wanted to uh I've I've alwaysalways wanted to uh I've I've alwaysalways wanted to uh I've I've always said I'd like to have a record as goodsaid I'd like to have a record as goodsaid I'd like to have a record as good as Warren buffets the problem is eachas Warren buffets the problem is eachas Warren buffets the problem is each year he adds on another year he's now inyear he adds on another year he's now inyear he adds on another year he's now in his 93rd year so I've got 36 more yearshis 93rd year so I've got 36 more yearshis 93rd year so I've got 36 more years uh to just get where he is and I thinkuh to just get where he is and I thinkuh to just get where he is and I think he's going to add a lot lot more yearshe's going to add a lot lot more yearshe's going to add a lot lot more years uh I'm excited about seeing what ner isuh I'm excited about seeing what ner isuh I'm excited about seeing what ner is going to produce um you know she'sgoing to produce um you know she'sgoing to produce um you know she's building an incredible company they'rebuilding an incredible company they'rebuilding an incredible company they're trying to solve a lot of problems withtrying to solve a lot of problems withtrying to solve a lot of problems with respect to products and buildings andrespect to products and buildings andrespect to products and buildings and their impact on the environment hertheir impact on the environment hertheir impact on the environment her vision is how do we design products thatvision is how do we design products thatvision is how do we design products that by virtue of the products existence theby virtue of the products existence theby virtue of the products existence the world is a better place you know todayworld is a better place you know todayworld is a better place you know today uh you make you know her her world is auh you make you know her her world is auh you make you know her her world is a world where the existence of the new carworld where the existence of the new carworld where the existence of the new car actually is better for the environment
actually is better for the environmentactually is better for the environment than if the new car hadn't existed andthan if the new car hadn't existed andthan if the new car hadn't existed and think about that in every product scalethink about that in every product scalethink about that in every product scale that's what she's working on I don'tthat's what she's working on I don'tthat's what she's working on I don't want to give away too much but you'rewant to give away too much but you'rewant to give away too much but you're going to see some early examples of whatgoing to see some early examples of whatgoing to see some early examples of what she's working on uh so again I getshe's working on uh so again I getshe's working on uh so again I get excited about theexcited about theexcited about the future um and uh and crises are sort offuture um and uh and crises are sort offuture um and uh and crises are sort of a terrible thing to waste and we've hada terrible thing to waste and we've hada terrible thing to waste and we've had a number of these here I think thisa number of these here I think thisa number of these here I think this disaster in the Middle East mydisaster in the Middle East mydisaster in the Middle East my prediction is the next few months uhprediction is the next few months uhprediction is the next few months uh this war will largely be over in termsthis war will largely be over in termsthis war will largely be over in terms of getting rid of Hamas I think a uh Iof getting rid of Hamas I think a uh Iof getting rid of Hamas I think a uh I can Envision a world in which Saudican Envision a world in which Saudican Envision a world in which Saudi Arabia some of the other Gulf StatesArabia some of the other Gulf StatesArabia some of the other Gulf States come together take over the governancecome together take over the governancecome together take over the governance and reconstruction of of of Gazaand reconstruction of of of Gazaand reconstruction of of of Gaza security guarantees are put in place thesecurity guarantees are put in place thesecurity guarantees are put in place the Abraham Accords continue to grow a dealAbraham Accords continue to grow a dealAbraham Accords continue to grow a deal is made terrorists areis made terrorists areis made terrorists are ostracized um that this October 7thostracized um that this October 7thostracized um that this October 7th experience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MIT
experience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MITexperience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MIT Columbia unfortunately other campuses isColumbia unfortunately other campuses isColumbia unfortunately other campuses is a wake-up call for universitiesa wake-up call for universitiesa wake-up call for universities generally um you know people see thegenerally um you know people see thegenerally um you know people see the problems with Dei but understand theproblems with Dei but understand theproblems with Dei but understand the importance of diversity and andimportance of diversity and andimportance of diversity and and inclusion but not as a politicalinclusion but not as a politicalinclusion but not as a political movement but as a way um that we returnmovement but as a way um that we returnmovement but as a way um that we return to a meritocratic world where someone'sto a meritocratic world where someone'sto a meritocratic world where someone's background is relevant in understandingbackground is relevant in understandingbackground is relevant in understanding their contribution uh but it's not wetheir contribution uh but it's not wetheir contribution uh but it's not we don't have race quotas and things thatdon't have race quotas and things thatdon't have race quotas and things that were made illegal years ago actuallywere made illegal years ago actuallywere made illegal years ago actually being implemented uh in in organizationsbeing implemented uh in in organizationsbeing implemented uh in in organizations on campus so I think there's we can goon campus so I think there's we can goon campus so I think there's we can go through a corrective phase and I'm anthrough a corrective phase and I'm anthrough a corrective phase and I'm an optimist and I hope hope we get there sooptimist and I hope hope we get there sooptimist and I hope hope we get there so you have hope for the entirety of ityou have hope for the entirety of ityou have hope for the entirety of it even for Harvard I hope even even foreven for Harvard I hope even even foreven for Harvard I hope even even for Harvard it's generally hard to break 400Harvard it's generally hard to break 400Harvard it's generally hard to break 400 year old things well I share your hopeyear old things well I share your hopeyear old things well I share your hope and um you are a fascinating mind aand um you are a fascinating mind aand um you are a fascinating mind a brilliant mind persistent as you like to
brilliant mind persistent as you like tobrilliant mind persistent as you like to say and fearless The Fearless part issay and fearless The Fearless part issay and fearless The Fearless part is truly inspiring and this was antruly inspiring and this was antruly inspiring and this was an incredible conversation thank you thankincredible conversation thank you thankincredible conversation thank you thank you for talking today Bill thank you Lexyou for talking today Bill thank you Lexyou for talking today Bill thank you Lex thanks for listening to thisthanks for listening to thisthanks for listening to this conversation with Bill Amman to supportconversation with Bill Amman to supportconversation with Bill Amman to support this podcast please check out ourthis podcast please check out ourthis podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now letsponsors in the description and now letsponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words fromme leave you with some words fromme leave you with some words from JonathanJonathanJonathan Swift a wise person should have money inSwift a wise person should have money inSwift a wise person should have money in their head but not in theirtheir head but not in theirtheir head but not in their heart thank you for listening and hopeheart thank you for listening and hopeheart thank you for listening and hope to see you nexttime