OtherIt's great to see you.
WarrenCharlie, it's great to see you.I mean, I've been at Omaha.And I think I've made, prior to the last week,I've probably made two plane flights in two years.I mean, once to see my sister.I mean, just free at last.
QuestionerYou're 91?
WarrenI'm 91. I'm 91.
QuestionerGood health?
WarrenI couldn't be in better health.It's so discouraging to methat my partner in business, life, everything else,Charlie Munger is 98.
QuestionerYou're still going strong?
CharlieI'm still the kid.
QuestionerYou have a successor in place?
WarrenWe have a successor in place.But he's not warming up.You're not ready to go.I'm still in overtime, but I'm out there.
QuestionerYou still tap dance to work?
WarrenI tap dance to work, Charlie.I've never been...I've always been happy in the work,but I've never been happier.I've got the most interesting, to me, job in the world.I've got people you wouldn't believe to support me.It takes about four or five.I mean, it takes a village to a degree.But I've got three people sitting right downwithin 20 feet of me, or 30 feet.You know, my assistant, Deb Bosonic,the fellow that handles all the trades I tell him to doin the morning, and money and billions flow in and out,and he takes care of it all, Mark Millard,and I've got a chief financial officer, Mark Hamburg,who knows more than most of the finance officesand legal offices and everything else in the world.And we've all worked together for dozens of years,and we like each other, and everybody helps me.It couldn't be better.
QuestionerChoosing who you work with.It's everything.
WarrenI mean, I write a little bit about it in the annual report,but choosing what you do and who you do it with,you're going to, you know, if you're like me,you're going to spend 70 years or something.My assistant hasn't worked the whole time with me,but she went to work for Berkshire when she was 17,and she still looks 17, and now, you know,she'll be with us 50 years, I presume.And they know me forward and backwards,and they accept my eccentricities.They help me.
QuestionerWhat would they be?
WarrenBut I would say this.If you take Mark Millard, I walk in in the morning,or I call him first, and I tell him exactly.I've already done it for today.I tell him exactly what I want to do,and he does it all day, and some days, a good many days,he moves billions of dollars, purchases and sales.He takes care of the whole thing.
QuestionerWhen do you make those decisions?
WarrenI think all the time.I'm on the clock at Berkshire all the time.
QuestionerWalk me through a typical day.
WarrenWell, a typical day is I get to work at, well, I get up.I get up usually at a few minutes before 7so I can catch the 7 o'clock news and network news in Omaha.And so I get up a few minutes before that,and sometimes I turn on the network news.I always turn on CNBC, and I look at what prices are doingand what's happening in Europe and what's happening in Japan,and I then about, you know, the market opens at our time, 8.30,although we're doing maybe things in Japan or Germany too,but I call Mark at 8 for the market opening at 8.30,and I tell him exactly what to do for the day,and I probably won't change it during the day,but it's usually a percentage of something.I will say buy or sell X percent of the trading volume,and I'll give him a list of things.If there's a limit of price, I give him the price,and then he does it all day.I don't need to check with him,and he sometimes does billions of dollars worth of business.He buys the treasury bills, which we, the last couple of years,we probably bought $5 billion every Monday,and I would guess that we might be the biggest buyer,just week after week after week after week.
QuestionerYou made your first investment when you were 11 years old?
WarrenIn 1942, 80 years ago, I took $114.75 every penny I saved,and I bought three shares of City Service Preferred,and City Service was a pretty well-known name down then.In fact, in 1920, City Service, I think,was the fourth largest company in the United Statesin terms of number of shareholders.It was a big company, and so it had a preferred stockthat was selling at $38,then it started skipping the dividends during the Depression,so it accumulated dividends on it of $60 or $70,and of course, it was a par value of $100 too,and it was selling at $38.At breakfast one morning, I follow little stocks every day,but then I made my plunge,and I had roughly this amount of money,so I bought three shares.I don't remember this precisely,but I think I told my dad in the morning,now, let's move, Dad.Pop, I call it, but I said, let's move, Pop.
QuestionerBut you felt the thrill of it then?
WarrenOh, I've been reading about it and following it the whole morning.I really had read every book in the public librarythat was on the stock market.
QuestionerBy 11?
WarrenBy 11, I'll guarantee you, and some of them twice.I started out reading the ones in my dad's office,and I just loved to read.I read other things too,but I knew more when I was 11 than I do now
Questionerin terms of actual mechanics of the stock.I mean, I don't know what happens when I put an order.I mean, it gets in the machinery of the way orders are executed now.I wouldn't know if I sat and worked in a trading room for a day or two,but I don't really know the mechanics as wellof what happens when an order is processed todayas I did when I was 11.What is it you enjoy the most about it?
WarrenBecause you don't pick stocks.You pick companies.Yeah.But when I was 11, I picked stocks.I had the whole wrong idea.I was interested in watching stocks,and I thought stocks were things that went up and down,and I charted them.I read books on technical analysis.I read Edwards and McGee.I think that was the classic then,hundreds and hundreds of pages,and I read that whole thing over and over again.I read Garfield, Drew.I read everything,and I thought the first eight years,I thought the important thing was to predict what a stock would doand predict the stock market,and then I read Ben Graham when I was 19 or 20,and I realized that I was doing it exactly the wrong way,but it didn't hurt that I had that background and everything.I rejiggered my mind when I read the book,Intelligent Investor,and from that point, I never bought another stock.I bought businesses that happened to be publicly traded,but I became an owner of a business,and I did not care whether a stock went up or down the next dayor the next week or the next month or the next year,and I didn't have any idea what it would do.I didn't know what the stock market would do,but I knew businesses.I knew something.I've asked people about your genius,whatever we describe it.No.I'm a bright guy who's terribly interested in what he does,so I've spent a lifetime doing it,and I've surrounded myself with people that bring out the best in me,and you don't need to be a genius in what I do.That's the good thing about it.If I went into physics or a whole lot of other subjects,I'd be an also-rat,but I am in a game that you don't need.You probably need 120 points of IQ,but 170 doesn't do any better than 120.It may do worse, probably do worse,but you don't really need brains.What do you need?You need the right orientation.You know, 90% of the people,I'm pulling a figure out of the air,but 90% of the people that buy stocks don't think of them the right way.They think about something they hope goes up next week,and they think about the market as something they hope goes up,
Questionerand if it's down, they feel worse.
WarrenI feel better.
QuestionerAnd you think about?
WarrenPardon me?
QuestionerWhat do you think about?
WarrenA company's going to be worth 10 or 20 years from now. And I hope it goes down when I buy it because I'll buy more.
QuestionerDo you have a competitive spirit?
WarrenClearly. Yeah. Clearly. Well, but you've got to be careful about what you compete in. It's a good thing I don't have a competitive spirit in chess or football. I'm an observer there. I enjoy watching things like that, but I try to keep my competitive spirit in a game where I win.
QuestionerDo you have a killer instinct?
WarrenNah, not exactly. I've got, I wouldn't call it a killer instinct, but I do know this. When I want to do something, I always want to do it big. I put my whole net worth in city service preferred. $120. $114.75. I put my whole net worth and I've never since I was, well, since that day, March 11, 1942, I have never had less than 80% of my money in American business. You can call them stocks. Or equities. But I see them as American business. I've owned a piece of American business for at least 80% at all times. I don't want to own anything else. I want to own a home and things my family wants and all that. But owning five homes doesn't mean anything to me because I'm going to be happy in one home and there's a certain amount of things that go wrong with everything. If I've got two homes, I know I've got more problems and I'm going to have more happiness.
QuestionerWhat brings you the happiness?
WarrenI would have to honestly say that what makes me happiest is what I'm doing. I enjoy two things about it. One, I know I'll win over time. That doesn't mean I'll beat everybody else or anything like that. The game is very, very, very easy if you have the right lessons in your mind about what you're buying. I'm not buying stocks. I'm buying pieces of overwhelmingly American business. And I'm happy when that's happy and when I'm doing it. I'm happier when stocks are going down because I can buy more of them with the same amount of money. I'd be happy if I was a farmer. If I wanted to farm, I had to go down so I could buy more acreage. It just makes sense. I'll tell you the second thing I really like. I like being trusted by people. I would rather do what I do with partners than do it sitting in a room myself even though I might make more money that way.
QuestionerYou like the idea that people are trusting you with their savings.
WarrenYeah. They just say, look, I've saved money. I don't know what to do with it.
WarrenI trust you.And they give it to me.Most of them give it to me, certainly in the original days,but even now to an unusual degree,give it to me with the idea that it's for the lifetime.And then most of them, I mean they've done this a long time ago,most of them give it away when they get through.They never quit saving.I mean, and of course, I'm sort of their savings machine.They save it and then give it to you.Yeah, and then they say keep it and just keep building it.And they don't do it with the idea they're going to retire when they're 65and then build great castles or anything like that.They just basically, a few do.I mean, a few spend some money later on,but overwhelmingly if they've been saving when they were 25and saved a little money and gave it to me, they're still saving.There were 11 doctors that we met at a hilltop house.It was one friend of mine named Bill Engel,and he was trying to get these other doctors to join with me.So I don't know when it was, 1958 or 19,but he invited 12 doctors to this dinner at the hilltop house,and he had me come.And he basically said, this is my friend Warren,and if you've got any brains, you'll give him some money.And so we spent the evening, and these guys were all public.They're low 30s.And 11 of the 12 put in $10,000 each.The 12th said to Bill, he said, well, what happens if we lose our money?And my friend Bill never forget it.He said, well, dummy.He says, we'll form another partnership.That was the guy that didn't invest.He got reminded of this by the other 11 for the rest of his life.And those people stuck with me,and one of them died in the last year.It was a friend of mine until the end.And 101, and his name was Stan Trulson.He came from a little town of about 300 people near Omaha,and he became an ophthalmologist and a super wonderful guy in every way.I mean, he helped all his fellow doctors,and you couldn't find a finer guy than Stan.But two of the other 11, two of them are still alive.And the money, and the amount of money, I mean, they haven't built.They could have done anything.I mean, they could have lived bigger than anybody in Nebraska,but they went with the lives they liked.And so have you.Yeah.So have you.You live in the same house.You've lived there ever.I bought it in 1958.So I'm 63 or 64 years.A quarter of the life of the country.I've lived a quarter of the life of the country in one house.And I like being five minutes from the office too.
WarrenI mean, just think if I had a 35-minute commute. I've gone to the same office now since January of 62. So it's been 60 years. And let's say I save 30 minutes every day and commute each way.
QuestionerLet me turn to the Stockholders letter that you wrote for 2021.
WarrenWell, that letter was, I started that letter in my head. I've already started next year's letter in my head. But I started that letter in my head. Because you can begin to see what. Oh, I know what I'm going to write about. And then I just have to, it keeps forming. But that isn't a newsletter that comes on. It's what I want to talk to my. Well, I was forged originally in terms of my sisters. Who had practically all their money in Berkshire. They trusted me 60 years ago. And they just put it all in. And they're very smart. My older sister, Doris, died here recently. But both of them very, very smart. And interested in financial matters. But they're not a nut like me. And so they got other interests too. And basically they've had all their money. And they don't want to hear day-to-day. So you tell them what's happened in the last year. But once a year, it's like I sit down with them and tell them. Here's what might be interesting to you. And that's, I'm doing that all year in my mind. I know what I'm going to talk about next year. Unless something changes dramatically.
QuestionerCan you tell me what that is?
WarrenNo. But I can tell you this. Last night, I went to Music Man. Among the people who went with me was my friend Carol Loomis. Carol was 92. She's a great journalist and a good writer. She starts editing. I sent her the report, which I think is perfect always at the time. I sent her the report in usually December. And she keeps sending back. And she kind of won't let me send it out without checking to make sure. Unless there's a comma someplace. So right up to the end. So the report, although it's dated February 20th, that report basically was written. Well, it was written in my head for a long time. But it was what I thought was finished probably in December. And then Carol tells me there's a lot of work to do.
QuestionerNo big investment in 2021 because you didn't see anything that met your requirement.
WarrenYeah. I wrote the report and people can go to the BerkshireHathaway.com and they can see exactly what I think. And I've thought for 40 some years of each report. But for you to make a big investment, what do you need to know? I need to know that I think the Berkshire Hathaway is going to be worth more money someday down the road.
WarrenNot tomorrow.I want it to go down if I'm buying something.And I would say this.The world has changed a lot since that report was written.But the world changed a lot in 2000, two years ago.Just think about it.Because of the pandemic.The pandemic.It's almost exactly two years later.An event happened two years ago.And we didn't know exactly what it was.We didn't know what the financial result would be.We didn't know what the fiscal result would be.I mean, we just didn't know.But when I wrote my report in February, I didn't know the pandemic was going to hit a week later.And I didn't know that the American financial system was on the brink of, you know, chaos.A few weeks later.And if somebody wants to read a great book that just came out, it's a sensational book called Trillion Dollar Triage.It tells on a day-by-day basis what was going on in March that, well, in my opinion, Jay Powell, you know,he matched Paul Volcker in terms of doing things that needed to be done that day.And it's a great day-by-day report.The book just came out a couple days ago.
QuestionerWe expect the Fed will raise the rates.Does it remind you of 1970s?
WarrenEverything that happens in the investment world reminds me of something or other.I mean, every day.If it's a boring day, it reminds me of something.I mean, but I don't think that way.All I'm trying to do is buy businesses.Let's pretend there is no stock market.Let's say I had to buy these privately, like you buy a farm privately, like you buy a department house privately.They're investments.So you're looking to say, what can I do with money I've saved to put it away so I feel good about getting it back later under any circumstances, but not necessarily on a given moment.But if I have a farm, it's going to take me a while.But it is – people would be so much better if they actually didn't have a stock market in terms of buying businesses.
QuestionerYou made two huge investments recently.One is Activision.
WarrenNo, I – we have two fellows in the office that each – they manage a total of about $30 billion between them, Ted Weschler and Todd Combs.Two people you chose.They've been with us for about 10 years each.They have total authority over the money they invest.They are just as independent in buying things as I am.I mean if they decide to buy something in a country I've never heard of in the stock – they don't ask me.
QuestionerBut are you saying that maybe they were decided to –
WarrenWell, I've actually said that one of those – I'm sort of very clear and there's a letter on the website that describes exactly the circumstances.
WarrenBecause it got misreported in the press originally.And so I have written a letter there because actually a number of other first-class news organizations picked up the story without checking whether it was true.I mean they ran with it without independently reporting it.I'm not going to name names but there's some names in my letter.But they just ran it wrong, a wrong story which had implications and so on.So the letter is up there.It's going to stay posted forever because it's the correct record.And what happened precisely is that one of the other fellows decided to buy Activision.Didn't ask me.And it's fine.But he bought it.He bought about – I think I used a figure of 85%.I think when we double-checked it, it was 76% or 77%.But we'll list every day that he bought it and the price he bought it.And the price was reported as wrong by the press and that was picked up by a whole bunch of other organizations and printed as wrong.And so millions of people read an incorrect story.And so we put up the correct facts and we will – we'll have it at the annual meeting.I think I'll have a slide if anybody asks me for it.It will show every day's purchases and the exact price.And that was done by one of the fellows in the office.Now – and that was, like I say, 77% was in October and the rest was in early November.And he paid about $77 a share.And you can buy it today.And Microsoft announced – the first story said weeks later, which makes it sound like two or three or four weeks later.It was probably 12 weeks later.It said months later.So the investment was months before Microsoft decided to acquire Activision.The other guy liked it as a stock, as a business.And so he was buying it.And he paid an average of, like I say, $77 a share.And we will have a list of every day at every price.And then I guess it was – well, the – there was a big expose type story run and – but he wasn't buying during any of that period.And then the preliminary proxy came out.It's been filed with the SEC by Activision, deciding – describing the history of the deal as to when Microsoft came to them.And it was sometime in a couple months later that Microsoft first approached Bobby Kodak and then four other people.You can read it all.It's filed with the SEC.And then after it was announced, the stock – you could buy the stock at $78 a share.So the implication of the first story was that it was somehow that somebody made a great deal by getting tipped off or something.
WarrenYou could have bought it at $1 a share.You could have bought it after it was announced.Higher than one of the other fellows paid for about – he bought about 15 – close to 15 million shares.He still got it.How about Occidental?Well, Occidental, a week ago – well, you know, a couple years ago, we financed Occidental.And had some warrants coming out of it.Vicky Hollow, who I'd never met before.And I got a call on a Friday and Bank of America saying that Occidental is going to need some money to buy Anadarko.And I think to no one then they were in competition with Chevron.And would I meet with them?Because they needed a lot of money fast.And I said, sure.How about tomorrow?And went back and forth.Turned out they came up Sunday instead of Friday.And we met at 10 o'clock in my office on a Sunday.And I said, we'll give you $10 billion under these circumstances.But we'll do it.We'll do it tomorrow.And, you know, that's not Wall Street, but that's Berkshire.And so – and they knew I was good for it.And so we made a deal.Monday night, the next day, night, you know, I told our guys, you work all night.Kvath works all night for them.And we get this thing done on Tuesday.
QuestionerBut is there much negotiation or you simply say, this is what I will do?
WarrenThis is what I'll do.I always say that's what I'll do.I mean, you know, I've said that's what I'll do many times.And that is all I'll do.
QuestionerBut this is what you have come to represent.I mean, think of the financial crisis and think of Goldman Sachs.I said what I'd do.You said what you'd do, but it gave them credibility when they needed itthat Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway had decided to have confidence in them.They were putting in X billions of dollars.And there wasn't any question we were putting it in.It wasn't an IOU or anything else.We sent them the cash.And it was right after Lehman.And there was a run on the whole economic system.Everybody was a domino.And the dominoes were falling.Goldman Sachs knew they'd be fine if all the dominoes didn't fall.And they had to worry about the United States Congressbecause they were mad, really mad at banks.This time they weren't mad at banks in this particular crisis.But they were mad at banks.And they really didn't, some of them didn't fully understandwhat the hell was going to happen.They were mad because this was a financial crisis.I mean, it was a financial crisis cubed.But it had an origin in financial institutions.
QuestionerA lot of people did a lot of things wrong.But there was plenty of it in Wall Street, plenty of it in Wall Street.But there was plenty of it elsewhere too.I want to emphasize that.But Wall Street made a lot of money out of doing a lot of thingsthat contributed to the crisis.Here's my point.Berkshire and Warren Buffett emerged to a point whereyour reputation and your credibility.And our money.And your money.The money was important but it wasn't the determining factor.They wanted the money.Yeah.But they also wanted credibility.They had to have instant credibility.And that's what you did.They had to have somebody who counted besides peoplewhose position it was to lie.And how did you build that?Which is an essential part of who you are and Berkshire Hathaway is.
WarrenWell, I started on March 11, 1942.As we talked.And I had a father that was the right father.And I was lucky.I think you may have heard this.Lenin once said,there are decades when nothing happensand then there are weeks when decades happen.That's very well put.And when you're buying businesses,don't call them stocks.When you're buying businesses,when you're buying apartment houses sometimes,when you're buying raw land,you know, all kinds of things.There are times when you get a chance to actand do something really intelligent.It may happen once every 10 years,once every 20 years.Depends on what field you're in,where you live, what you know, all of that.But most of the important things,there's a lot of foundational work.But the actual big acts in lifeare when you propose to your spouse.Forget all the other stuff.If you made the right decisionand you get the right answer from he or she,you're 90% of the way home in life.But also things happen in the worldlike the pandemic.That's true, too.And it can change everything as it did.It happened in 1929.And it happened in 1918, 1918.I forget when things were in 1907.I mean, when they closed the stock exchangeback in 1914 for a long period of time.People don't ever think about that.9-11, they closed the stock exchange for a few days.And, I mean, there are big events in this world.We're going through one of them right now.
QuestionerYeah, but I'm going to get into discussing that particularly.Allow me this.I mean, this is having a huge effecton the world order.It's true.Yeah, but it doesn't do me any good.And it doesn't do the world any goodfor me to talk about it, so.
QuestionerCan we talk about the global economy then, you know,
Questionerin terms of where we are?
WarrenI can tell you where we are, but.
WarrenLet me phrase it this way in terms of the global economy. I mean, you look at the United States. United States is the United States economy. And it's very easy to look at the statistics on it. I mean, more people, a greater percentage of the American population is wealthy now or having more income now than they've ever had. And if you look at whether Bank of America would give you their average deposit. I mean, you just look at the wealth. And that doesn't mean everybody's wealthy, but it does mean relative to any other period of time. I mean, people have more money now. They get mortgages at lower rates than they've ever gotten. So if they want to buy a house or something. But is that going to continue? I mean, mortgage rates are rising, as you know. We're in an inflationary period. I'm not going to predict any rates for you. But, no.
QuestionerI'm not asking you to predict anything.
QuestionerNo, but right today, right today, Charlie.
WarrenYou live in an environment.
QuestionerYeah, you live in an environment where the bottom 2%, in terms of income in the United States, the bottom 5%, and for sure the top 1%, all live better than John D. Rockefeller was living when I was six years old.
WarrenJohn D. Rockefeller was the richest man in the world. And today, you can get better medicine, better education, better entertainment, better transportation. You can do everything better than he could. I mean, it's astounding. That's in my lifetime. If you wanted to watch a football game, he still had to go there. And I can sit there with this big screen and they keep showing me the replay. So they're explaining to me what happened. And maybe everybody doesn't have a screen as big as mine, but damn near everybody has a screen or an iPhone or a computer or access to one. And they have access. I mean, when I was born, the dentist didn't use Novocaine. So there has been progress, obviously. And nowhere more than in the United States.
QuestionerWell, relative to the base, maybe more than.
WarrenI mean, but there's no country that's done what our country has done. If you go back three of my lifetimes, you're looking, you know, you've been to Columbo. You're 91, so. Three lifetimes. You are looking at less than 1% of the world's population. Closer to half of 1%. Half of 1% of the people in the world are sitting in this land. They don't work harder than people in all the rest of the world. I mean, in terms of hours of unpleasant labor, everybody's got hours of unpleasant labor
Warrenin those days, practically.They don't have, they don't come laden with gold.You know, they are half of 1%.And they work the same hours.They got the same IQs.They may be a little self-selectedin terms of enterprise, in terms of goingacross oceans and things.And fast forward a couple of lifetimes,and they've got 20% plusof all the bounty in the world.I mean, that is something that has workedlike nothing.Just imagine that.If you've gone to anybody,the Constitutional Congress,in 1789, if you go to any oneof the representatives there,and you said, I want to tell youwhat this place is going to look like,you know, in three more of your lifetimes,your great-great-grandchildren,great-great-grandchildren, yeah,are going to be flying in the skies.They're going to be watching sportsall over the world.They're going to be entertained.They're going to hold you offto a lunatic society.But at the same time, as you know,and you hear this all the time,845 billionaires in America.Yeah.And they have more wealth thanthe bottom 60%.That's true.And that's up to government.Government has a proper place,and the capitals are believing.And government's the rulemaker.But Henry Ford, by 1922 or 1923,he was turning out 2 million cars a year.Now, how many could the Ford family use?30? 40? I don't know.So 2 million people are gettingthe benefit of what he's doing,and he's getting 30,000,he's getting 50 cars,and he's getting a whole bunchof little claim checks.Just think of it.Everything, when Thomas Edisondid all the things he did,you know, he made some money,but we better, I mean, we're using it.Yeah.It belongs to us, and it doesn't,if you take what an hour of labordelivered to you 100 years agoand what an hour of labordelivers to you now for youand your family,it's unbelievable.But that's an argumentfor the forward progressof civilization.It's an argument for capitalism,but capitalism doesn't sayget rid of a referee and a government.We've got a governmentthat can tell capitalism what to do.Do you think?And they do,and that's just what they should do,and they do it in different waysat different timesand all kinds of things.But I've got this money,which I'll never, I can't, you know,it's, but it has value to somebody.I mean, it's claim checkson future output.The claim checks belong to me,so if I want to buy 50 super yachts,I can do it.But what does it mean to me?It can buy more thingsfor other people
Warrenthat are useful to them. And I don't, I have everything I want in life, you know, everything. So it's not evil, but the federal government is the boss in the end, and they shouldn't screw up capitalism and capitalism shouldn't screw up the federal government. It's very simple. But does capitalism need to be reformed itself? As you know... It's evolving, always. We started in 1789. We had business, and it's gotten far, far, far, unbelievably more productive for people. And the only thing it can do with what it produces is give it to other people. It isn't like the 50 richest guys in the country can say, I'm just going to eat everything. They're turning out products. You know, that iPhone that I have, which I'm probably the least capable guy in the world of working with it, but it makes life better. It is the reason that Apple is the richest company in the world. Yeah, and you've had Tim Cook on before, and you can hear as a company that a guy invents something, and all kinds of other smart people do the same thing. Apple, I think, sells less than 25% of the smartphones in the world. I know a guy that produces as many as Apple does. But Apple has produced the one that's the most useful to people. It's an aspirational product. Somebody, you know, a lot of people have made cars, but you've got a few survivors that made the ones that people like the best. And, you know, we would be selling 16 or 17 million cars a year in this country if we had 50 producers, or whether we got three. We never used to have... But here is an interesting fact, as you know. Tesla has more market value than all the other automobile companies combined. Yeah, Elon Musk. What does that say? That shows what America produces. Elon Musk? Elon didn't... I mean, he's taking on General Motors and Ford and Toyota and all these people who've got all this stuff, and he's got an idea. And he's winning. That's America. I mean, we're... You can't dream it up. I mean, it's astounding. Now, you still need a referee. And that's the government. Yeah, sure. And you need a judicial system, and, you know. But that comes with government. And we've got the best... So far, we've got the best system. We've got a better system than we used to have, and we'll have a better system 50 years from now. Why are you so sure? Well, I'm just... I've seen 91 years of it. I've never seen a period where I didn't believe that. And I haven't... That it will get better. Of course. In every aspect of it. Not every aspect. We can go backwards in something.
WarrenNo, it's not...But it's unbelievable what has happened.You know.I mean, just think of it.You know, we've had a civil war.We've had a Great Depression.We've had all these things.Pandemics?We've had...Yeah.And we'll continue to.We'll have...I'll guarantee you,we'll have something, you know,next year and the year afterand the year after.But in a herky-jerkybut dramatic matter,business moves forward,government moves forward,more important,people move forward.
QuestionerThe thing that you fear the most,and you have said this,is nuclear war.
WarrenYep.I think with Einstein, you know,maybe it was Berturism, this one,but he said,this changes everything in the worldexcept the way men think.
QuestionerYou don't want to talk aboutthe current situationwhere one of the questions is,what if we end up with a World War IIIand a nuclear catastrophe?Is the reason you don't want to talk to me about itbecause you don't want to be quotedand people...
WarrenI don't want to talk about it,but I've talked about nuclear catastrophesin the past.Yeah.And the truth is that...Well, it was Einstein that said,I know not what the weaponsof World War III will be,but World War IV will be foughtwith sticks and stones.And that says it all.Yeah.We've got the power,and other people have the power,to essentially destroy the planet.And climate change is importantin all of those things.I mean, there's all kinds of thingswe should be working on.But, in the end,the only thing...I mean, I guess a comic could hit us or something,but the...We can destroy this.And it's not just us.We can end the planet.And I don't want to talk about it much morebeyond that.I don't like saying that to people, even.But it's true.It was true when Einstein said it.I mean, it's been true.You know, we came close to the Cuban Missile Crisis.And it is being talked about now.
QuestionerUnless you talk about it.No, I hear you.But let me...Before we leave capitalism,in a sense,do you see any changes thatbusinesses ought to do?Because, you know, there is,on the part of Larry Finkand others...There are always things going on.Where does Warren Buffettcome down on that argument?
WarrenI will be talking about a lot of thingson April 30th,at our annual meeting.And that's when I'm talking toall of our shareholdersat the same time.The people who have trusted youto manage their money.There will be 40,000 in attendance.And it will, you know,it will be taken around the world.And that's when I can talk to all
Questionerif they want to listen in.Every one of my partnerscan hear at the same timeon a Saturday.So Star Merch is not open until Monday.And so they can digest itor they can watch replaysor anything else.Because they can watch it on,you know,CNBC will be sending it all over the world.Watching is not like being there.No.Well, it isn't for a lot of people.But we're going to have,in my view,you know,if it were held today,well, who knows what April 30th brings.But we will have,I think,from everything I hear,we're going to have the largestgroup come along, I think, ever.And I sure hope so.Do I hear you,and you can tell me I'm wrong here,that all those thingsthat I might want to hearand your partners might want to hearand everybody wants to hear,A, because, you know,because you're a student of history.A, B, because you have written aboutthe evolution of historyin annual lettersas well as in answering questionsat annual meetings.But on the questions of war and peaceand questions of new world order,on the questions of sanctions,on the questions of inflation,all those things that I'm enormously curious about,you're holding back talking to themuntil you choose the venuethat you want to be.
WarrenYeah, and there may be some,there may be a lot of thingsI don't feel I should talk aboutat that time too,but that is going to be a very,very important meeting.And I get that timeto take all these peoplewho trusted me with their money,trust me with their future,and I talk to them at the same time.And they can ask questionsthat they can be impertinent,they can do anything they want with us.And I love it.And Charlie loves it.But you understand my curiosity.Oh, of course.But do I understandthis is an important moment.This is a moment to speak toand we're in a crucial time.Yeah, but we've been in lots of crucial times.We're in a crucial,at 9-11,did we think we were in a crucial time?Sure.The world changed in five.And I didn't know how it had changed.President of the United Statesdidn't know how to change.Nobody knew what the hellwas going to happen.I want to know how Warren has changedfrom decade to decade to decade.Do you have a sense of that?I've gotten dumber,but I've gotten wiser.Okay, that's a nice phrase.But what does it mean?It means that I can't adda group of numbers remotelyas fast as I used to be able to.I can't remember sometimeswhen I walk upstairs.While I'm walking up the stairs,I'm thinking about something else.
WarrenSo by the time I get to the top of the stairs, I don't remember why the hell I walked upstairs. It means I forget names so easily. It means that I can't read as fast as I used to read. I am a decaying machine that still feels wonderful. But I can't hear as well. I can't see as well. My balance is as good, but it doesn't interfere with my happiness, my work, anything.
QuestionerEspecially your work.
WarrenWell, I mean, clearly your happiness, but it doesn't, you know, you're saying notwithstanding... It doesn't interfere with anything. That age is... I can get on a plane and go anyplace. You know, I can do anything as long as you don't ask me to dance. Or juggle. Or even remember, you know, who did I meet yesterday? But in terms of the doing the job that you do, allocating capital... I can actually do that as well as ever.
QuestionerAs ever. Yeah, that sounds obvious. But better than that, do you do it today better than you did it 20 years ago?
WarrenNo. I've got a different set of opportunities. And that gives you, obviously... Well... Berkshire is much bigger than it's ever been, and therefore that defines... The size restricts the kind of things that can have an important effect on what I can do for the people who leave the money with me. So I am a... I can't earn the returns on capital with 500, you know, billion or 600, you know, whatever it may be to work. Like, if I do something brilliant, don't count on it, with $5 billion, it's 1% of my net worth. I mean, 1% of the net worth of people I'm working with. And 1% doesn't move much, you know. So I have to think about big things. And they're limited, I mean, you know. I made money in an entirely different way when I was working with originally $10,000, $9,800 to be exact. And when I started working with other people's money, it was $105,000. And May 5th of 1956, I had $105,100 put into that partnership. And Berkshire is the outgrowth of that. I went to the house that I was renting it for $175 a month the other day. I'd just come back from New York, and there's a little room. I would say it's about 5 feet by 8 feet. And I'd written on the door because I knew the people that owned it earlier. This is where it all started, May 5th, 1956. And I worked out of that little room for two years and moved to the house. And then I got another little room. I worked there for four years. And everything I did could double our net worth, you know. That doesn't mean I could find them all. But, I mean, there were thousands of possibilities,
Warrenand I wanted to know every one of them.And there are not thousandsof possibilities now.Oh, no, can't possibly be.No, there are thousands of possibilities.Not many whales out there.Not enough, but there's,well, there's some.Is that a moment of great exultationwhen you realize that's a whale?Sure.No, no, I see something.Yeah, well, I mean,if you're looking for whalesfor months,it's got to be,you've got to get sub-gunnersfor a lot of them when you buy one.Let me talk about somethingthat didn't work.You and Jamie Dimonand Jeff Bezos came together.Oh, yeah.Healthcare is a huge partof our economy.Yep.And here we saw threereally smart peoplerepresenting three enormous institutions.We had all the money in the world.All the money in the world.And we trusted each other.Yes.Totally.And it paid off.Which was well justified.So, I mean,we had as good a combinationas you could havein terms of resources, flexibility,mutual interests, everything.And what was the intent?The intent was,well, we had several intents,but, I mean,we had an intentand we had a hope.And we knew the hope was nothing.I mean, we knew that,we didn't knowwhether it was 50 against itor 100 against it.But what was the downside?The problem was so bigit was worth trying.Yeah.And what was the downside to it?Nothing.Right.Zero.Maybe we looked likewe couldn't solve it,which is true,but that's okay.Why couldn't you solve it?It's three,it's as big asfederal government receipts.I mean, it employs more peopleand it's not a terrible system.I mean, it's so much betterthan it was 20 years agoand 50 years agoand 100 years ago.So, I mean,we've got a wonderful medical system.But we're fighting over itall the time.Well, I mean,you know,anytime you get a big piein this country,as you know,until Obama did what he did,you know,Clinton failed and then Obama.I think what Obama did was good.I think it was a real importantprogress for the American people.And then the question ishow to make it better.And to make it better,what we need to do isA, bring the price downand B, make that accessibility to it.You've got to be sureeveryone,a rich, rich, rich, rich,unbelievably rich country,like America,like America,can be surethat every single personnot only has access,but feels he or she has accessthat knowsthat he can getprompt,reasonably prompt.I mean, again,the confluence with pandemicsand everything,but reasonably promptandessentially free.
WarrenI mean, it isn't free in the sense that society doesn't pay for it, but the ability to get good medical attention fast, reasonably fast, should exist for every American. It's that simple. It doesn't. We do pretty damn well, but we could do better. But we're not first in the world or second or third or...
QuestionerWell, listen, I don't know about medicine, but I know what everybody tells me, and I believe them, that we are the best in a great many things. People come to the United States if they've got a lot of money. And for a lot of things, we are, there's no way it touches us, as I understand it. And...
WarrenMine too, but just to understand what you're saying, the quality of the medical care is as good as it possibly can be in terms of the best physicians, the best therapies, the best intelligence, and great medical schools, and everything. But the access is the issue. It's better than Seberbit, but it's got room to go.
QuestionerI mean, it's better than Seberbit, Charlie. Most things, almost everything is good.
WarrenDid any ideas come out of this? Well, yeah. I think all three institutions learned something, and I think they actually, it wasn't that much money anyway, but we all got our money's worth, in the sense of just in terms of, you know, we employ 360,000 people. Amazon, you know, who knows how many they employ. And JV employs them. You know, it's fantastic. So we all learned something. But we didn't have any breakthroughs at all. We just learned something. Here's what was interesting about it for me was the fact that these three institutions led by these remarkable human beings, smart, successful, it was taking all that IQ and all that experience and applying it to a huge problem. And you ask yourself, are there other areas in which...
QuestionerYeah, well, you can say that everything we do in the country can be improved. Right. Education can be improved. I mean, everything.
WarrenTell me, are the things that you think we ought to be talking about? I'm going to talk about climate in just a moment. Are there things that you think we ought to be talking about? I mean, I am happy to tell people that the same thing I've told them before, but they'll never get the message, most of them, but a few do, that the most, you know, best thing to do if you want to invest for the long term...
QuestionerIs index. And it's the S&P 500 index. Right. And what's happened, of course, is that organizations like to grow. So they set up indexes on different industries, different countries, and as soon as you do that, you're violating, basically,
Questionerwhat Jack Bogle said. He says you don't know enough to pick the right businesses, which means you don't know enough to pick the right countries.
WarrenYou know enough.
QuestionerAll right. Let me get to that. And I just want something I won't get to. But we will see a time in which the Chinese economy is bigger than the U.S. economy. Someday, you know, there are four times as many people and logically, they will grow and grow and we will be with the two superpowers.
WarrenAre they going to grow as fast as they have been growing? It's hard to tell. I don't know the answer to that. But they've got some issues. They've got issues. They've got issues. They've got issues of debt. They've got issues of demographics.
QuestionerYeah, everybody's got issues. Those kind of issues. They've got also issues. We've got issues throughout the history of the United States. They've also had issues of the environment and climate. The U.N. just released a report and we have heard it and we constantly hear it. How worried are you about our success in protecting the planet?
WarrenWell, the biggest threat, obviously, is nuclear weapons, but it doesn't mean you don't protect against other things. Right. And if there's a 1% chance, even, wait, I can't quantify it, but if there's a 1% chance of something causing the world trouble 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, we ought to be working on that too.
QuestionerAre we doing or not?
WarrenWe're doing a lot. The problem is, of course, that it requires the whole world to do a lot. There are a lot of problems like that, including the pandemic, including the environment that transcend national boundaries and need cooperation. The virus doesn't have to clear immigration.
QuestionerNo, it doesn't.
WarrenThe virus does not have to clear immigration. No, that's simple. It can be brought in by one person. There's a lot of other things that aren't physical viruses.
QuestionerWhen you look at Tim Cook, I think he's terrific. It's that simple.
WarrenI've written the annual report, and he is. He's a great manager. He's not only a great manager, he's a great human being, but he's a great manager too. He's an incredibly great manager, but he's a great human being.
QuestionerWhat do we look for in a great manager?
WarrenYou look for him. You look for somebody that has...
QuestionerResults.
WarrenYou look for somebody that has ability, trust, and character. Ability, trust, character. Yeah, somebody you can trust. Same thing you want in a spouse. Charlie always says you want to marry somebody better than you are. He says in my case, that leaves the whole world bright.
WarrenBut it's the truth. I mean, you always want to be around people who are better than you are. They pull you in the right direction.
QuestionerWhat's the chemistry? What's the nature of the relationship between you and Charlie?
WarrenIt's a long, long relationship. We met in May of 1959. His father died. He had worked in the same grocery store as I had in 1940. I worked there in 41. And we never met. I didn't know his name. And his dad was, you know, well-known all along, but I just didn't know. I was a kid and we moved to Washington. And so it was a name I never...
QuestionerYour dad went to Congress.
WarrenI never heard his name until 1959. Or no, I heard the name when I met the day. It was maybe 57 or 58. He came to Omaha in 1959. We met. And it's been, you know, the best relationship except others I've had, you know, in family and so on. But he's been the personal along with Tom Murphy and Joe Rosenfield, subsequent to my dad, that I least... that I didn't want to disappoint. Couldn't have somebody, you know, if you don't want to disappoint. It's enormously important.
QuestionerMake you a better person. Do you disagree on a lot of things?
WarrenWell, we've never argued. We've never had an argument. People say, well, that's impossible. I'm telling you, we've never had an argument. But you could say, I believe this. And he says, I believe this. You just don't argue about it.
QuestionerYeah. But we don't even have to say it hardly. We may know where we... that I would say this or that. Why break it up?
WarrenYou know, he, I think, has expressed some concern about index funds. I support everything Charlie says, but I don't agree with it. I don't mean on that. I mean, it doesn't mean I agree with him on everything. He doesn't agree with me on everything. And we've never had a problem with that since 59.
QuestionerJeff Bezos. Yeah. What about him?
WarrenJeff was a friend of mine, but I probably see him personally. I see him once a year. Yeah. And I can't recall ever talking to him on the telephone. Maybe I have. I've never sent him an email. But I don't know how to send emails.
QuestionerYou're not a get them son. Yeah. No, I've got a system, but I literally don't know how to send an email. You seem to have done okay without knowing.
WarrenSo far. But you once said to me, you know, I mean, he's one of the smartest businessmen.
QuestionerOh, absolutely. And the proof is in the pudding. Absolutely.
WarrenI read his annual reports. I see him once a year. I mean, I've usually seen him once a year in Sun Valley. And I enjoy that. And actually, at Sun Valley, at the Adelman Company Conference,
Warrenwe've had a dinner that a few of us had been.And so I've probably had at least three or four of those.It's remarkable to see a company,which was founded on selling books,now is a technological giant.It couldn't happen, but it did.When Jeff and Mackenzie were,I don't know whether they drove cross countryfrom New York to Seattle,but they stopped at our bar.I didn't know him then.He said, what do you think of this idea?You know, good luck, Jeff.
QuestionerYes, but you have told me that he at timeswould come up to you and have questionsif you were making a presentation at a conference.
WarrenYeah, at Sun Valley.Very, very, very smart guy.And, you know, I think, you know,well, I mean, look, a good bit of his fortuneis going to help society in various ways.The Giving Pledge is...
QuestionerWell, he's got his own plans on that.But Mackenzie, Mackenzie's joined it.She wrote a beautiful letter,if you haven't read it, go to the...
WarrenMackenzie's his former wife.
QuestionerYeah, and go to the Giving Pledgewhere we've got all the letters,and you will not read anything more beautifulthan what Mackenzie has written.And she's doing it.She's doing it, yeah.She's doing it.Oh, it's such a star.I mean, she's really making contributionsto black colleges and lots of other things.
WarrenCharlie, she is doing exactly what her inner selfand what she has expressedthrough the letter she's writtenand some other things, too,but the letter she wrote to the Giving Pledge,she's expressed a philosophy of lifethat I think is as good a modelas anybody can find.And I've only met her twice, maybe.And Melinda Gates is also...
QuestionerYeah.And Bill continues to make a huge impact on her.
WarrenYeah.Philanthropy.And they do it...And especially during the pandemic.Not with just money.They do it with time.They're on the scene.They do it with time.I mean, they give up...Time is the most precious thing you've got,you know, pretty much.And they do it with time.They are giving something.They're giving something I'm not willing to give.Time.That much time to that.I'd rather give my time to Berkshire.
QuestionerBecause?
WarrenBecause that's what I enjoy doing.And that's what you do well.
QuestionerYeah, that's what I do well.And it produces money,and that does well for other people.But it doesn't...It'll do better if it's given by other people.
WarrenWell, but that was a choice you made when you gave them...
QuestionerChoice.Choice I made a long, long time agoin terms of Susie and so on.But, yeah.
QuestionerRight.You know,somebody's going to do something with the money.
QuestionerAnd those are claim checks on the output of others.Productivity of the world.You can redistribute it to places where it's needed more.And I am all for that.I just don't want to do it myself.I'd rather do what I'm doing.Speaking of time,I have a few more minutes of your time.So let me ask these final questions.Have you achieved pretty much everythingthat you wanted out of life?
WarrenWell, the truth is yes,but I'm looking forward to tomorrow too.
QuestionerAny regrets?
WarrenWell, if you look back,you can always say,I should have done this or that,but it...I'd be nuts if I look back on my lifeand said you haven't been the luckiest guy imaginable.And I will say this.Aside from sickness and death,everything I thought was bad at the time has turned out well.
QuestionerAnd when you say you've been the luckiest guy,I assume that means, A, community and family,but it also means in your case,as you have said often,the country that you live in.
WarrenOh, totally.Charlie, if I'd been born any place but the United States,my life would have been totally different.And incidentally, you know,it helped to have a parent.But the United States is essential.It's given me everything.
QuestionerAnd your dad was the man you most admired.
WarrenYep.
QuestionerWhy was that?
WarrenWell, I never saw him do anything in his lifethat he didn't believe in.It turned out I didn't agree with him on things later on.I mean, I accepted this.Yeah, I mean, when we sat around the dinner table in the 1930s,I mean, my dad was the most anti-Roosevelt person you can imagine.So, you know, I almost had to say something bad about Rooseveltto get dessert, you know, or something.But, I mean, my sister and I grew up with that.But that's okay.He didn't...Anything I did, he supported,as long as it was...I was behaving okay.And even when I didn't behave okay,he never gave up.
QuestionerIt came out this week that you were one of the five richest people in the world.On that list was...Ahead of you was Bill Gates, Elon Musk,Jeff Bezos, and the man from France, Arnold.What does that mean to you?
WarrenIt means I can direct the way a whole lot of money goesto society.What really means something to me is the record of Berkshire.That's what I've done.The money flows out of it.But I paint the painting.The world can bid on it at an auction.But that is fun.And it's been fun.It's been way more fun doing it with Charlie as my partnerthan it would have been alone.I mean, it's just incomparable.
QuestionerSo the legacy is Berkshire Hathaway?
WarrenOh, sure.And it's my friends.That is a perfect segue to my last question.If you were given one last lecture, what would you want to say?
WarrenOh, I would probably talk about what's been important to me in lifeand how they should decide what's important to them in life.
QuestionerAnd so what's been important to you in life?
WarrenIt's all been, whatever it is, I've done it.I've got a family I feel terrific about.I've got a business, and I've got millions of people who have trusted me.
QuestionerThank you.It's a pleasure to have you.
WarrenThanks, John.It's always fun.